Finishing with a DA vs Rotary

bswombaugh

New member
I know that this topic has been beat to death with the consensus being that a Rotary can finish with a higher degree of clarity than a DA. I do not own a Rotary but have been toying with the idea of purchasing one and learning to use it. I currently own several DA's and a Flex and get very good results with what I have. It does however intrigue me that a paint can be "jeweled" by a Rotary to achieve a finish that just cannot be achieved with other machines.

From what I understand the reason that a Rotary can finish better than a DA is the fact that it can break down the abrasives more evenly. If this is true, does this mean that a Rotary is only going to perform better using DAT polishes ? If using SMAT products is the DA going to give just as good of finish as the Rotary ? I am just trying to understand the "whys" of this debate.
 
bswombaugh- That's a good Q. I suspect that the "one direction only" nature of the rotary can theoretically still provide the better finish. But yeah, the operative word there is "theoretically" for a lot of reasons ;)


(There should be a thread around here where Metropolitan Detail compared various polishers in this regard using a glossmeter.)

You and I both have the Flex 3401- I'm curious how you feel about that machine's final finishing abilities. Trying to get a gauge on what's the, uhm...threshold of significance.


(I'm sidestepping the whole issue of actually mastering the rotary and especially rotary-induced holograms, which *CAN* happen even with the mildest finishing combos. Also avoiding the Q of whether it's sensible to go "beyond perfection" anyhow.)
 
If my memory serves me correctly, there was a test that had a meter verify the results. The rotary won, but it was a very close. So, should you get a rotary? I would, it's not that hard to use and if you ever do a boat, you WILL thank me.
 
If my memory serves me correctly, there was a test that had a meter verify the results. The rotary won, but it was a very close. So, should you get a rotary? I would, it's not that hard to use and if you ever do a boat, you WILL thank me.

Even worse - an Airplane ---
Dan F
 
I own 5 different machines....if I had to pick only one to use....Makita...I personally think rotary's provide a different gloss than Da's....hard paints...Mercedes etc....you will wish you owned a Rotary
 
I know that this topic has been beat to death with the consensus being that a Rotary can finish with a higher degree of clarity than a DA. I do not own a Rotary but have been toying with the idea of purchasing one and learning to use it. I currently own several DA's and a Flex and get very good results with what I have. It does however intrigue me that a paint can be "jeweled" by a Rotary to achieve a finish that just cannot be achieved with other machines.

From what I understand the reason that a Rotary can finish better than a DA is the fact that it can break down the abrasives more evenly. If this is true, does this mean that a Rotary is only going to perform better using DAT polishes ? If using SMAT products is the DA going to give just as good of finish as the Rotary ? I am just trying to understand the "whys" of this debate.

Sometimes you will get "da haze" normally on darker colors. Just need to be finished more (imho)
 
How does one finish with a rotary without leaving swirls? Especially on dark paints. Maybe I am missing something in this question. I can get the swirls considerably less noticeable with a rotary if I do it right. But they are still there. So I always finish it off with a DA. I'm willing to gamble that I am confused by this question though lol.
 
How does one finish with a rotary without leaving swirls? Especially on dark paints. Maybe I am missing something in this question. I can get the swirls considerably less noticeable with a rotary if I do it right. But they are still there. So I always finish it off with a DA. I'm willing to gamble that I am confused by this question though lol.

After which step are you leaving swirls? Are you compounding or polishing/finishing? I wonder if it is haze/marring that you see. Most of the time on soft paint it is harder to finish down and the haze will look like swirls.
 
How does one finish with a rotary without leaving swirls? Especially on dark paints. Maybe I am missing something in this question. I can get the swirls considerably less noticeable with a rotary if I do it right. But they are still there. So I always finish it off with a DA. I'm willing to gamble that I am confused by this question though lol.

I never make swirls with my Makita... Not bragging, just fact..

-You want to keep the pad and product just moist enough to allow it all to finish the work, the pad, and the product are supposed to do on that spot on that panel..
-You Always want to keep the pad FLAT on the panel, understanding fully how the center of the pad is always going to be revolving slower than the outside of the pad, and make allowances for this..
-You will Never take the top half and bottom half of the pad, turn up the speed, and burn up and down a panel quickly - unless - you are installing the Swirl-O-Matic Look, to the paint..
-Experiment with Speed - I find that lower speeds work better for me and my needs, and this also allows more time for the process to start and finish more completely - and I never get dusting..
-Experiment with letting the pad do All the work for you - even cleaning up what little is left on the panel, so you have very little to wipe off and risk scratching that perfectly clear, glossy, work.. It may take a few more pads to do it this way, but to me and my business model, it is way worth it..
- I keep a lot of little white towels handy to wipe down the foam pad face often, so that it will last longer and give me the best possible work before I need to change it..
-It is OK to stop and start over on that panel as many times as it takes to get your process down for that panel and the rest of the car..

Good Luck !
Dan F
 
A Rotary will be able to use any type of compound, polish, etc., and work it down in trained, experienced hands..
I have used both DAT and SMAT and personally like Optimum Hyper-Polish a lot because it can correct and keep working until I lessen the pressure and allow it to clear up the paint and ultimately leave a very, clear, glossy, deep, finish.. It rocks on Acura paint..
Dan F
 
I never make swirls with my Makita... Not bragging, just fact..

-You want to keep the pad and product just moist enough to allow it all to finish the work the pad and the product are supposed to do on that spot on that panel..
-You Always want to keep the pad FLAT on the panel, understanding fully how the center of the pad is always going to be revolving slower than the outside of the pad, and make allowances for this..
-You will Never take the top half and bottom half of the pad, turn up the speed, and burn up and down a panel quickly - unless - you are installing the Swirl-O-Matic Look, to the paint..
-Experiment with Speed - I find that lower speeds work better for me and my needs, and this also allows more time for the process to start and finish more completely - and I never get dusting..
-Experiment with letting the pad do All the work for you - even cleaning up what little is left on the panel, so you have very little to wipe off and risk scratching that perfectly clear, glossy, work..
-It is OK to stop and start over on that panel as many times as it takes to get your process down for that panel and the rest of the car..

Good Luck !
Dan F


Well said great post


One of the keys with polishing is always having a moist oily but not wet film of polish on the surface and never buff dry
as well as slowing the machine down and keeping the pads clean with regular compressed air cleaning

Kenny - there are plenty of compounds and polishes in the market with gougy abrasives that are too aggressive for some paints and are constantly tearing at it when used
the other thing that's important with rotary is making sure your pad is perfectly centered on the backing plate.
 
I have a 3401 and a Makita rotary. Personally I have been using my rotary a lot more. In fact the last 5 corrections have been strictly with my rotary using Menzerna products. Fg400/sf4000 is a awesome combo. Being that they are DAT products the rotary I feel breaks down the abrasives quicker and easier and makes wipe off a breeze.
 
Its high time I get my Flex off the shelf again.
Dan, what speed you normally compound at? You use 105 a lot, right? That Hyper Polish is good stuff
 
I hate to jack this thread, BUT since this thread is about finishing down with a dual action orbital versus a rotary polisher, my question is;
Can you jewel/burnish with a large-throw DA or are the results best with a rotary??

I know that jeweling is not that common anymore. And it seems to me that there are only two polishes that lend themselves to jeweling: 3Ms UltraFina and Menzerna's Super Finish 3800. I suppose HD's Adapt and a LC blue pad could be considered here for that purpose.

Any thoughts??
 
Its high time I get my Flex off the shelf again.
Dan, what speed you normally compound at? You use 105 a lot, right? That Hyper Polish is good stuff

I learned at an early age when the paint was basically acrylic lacquers and enamels, and the speeds then were high to work the old-school products quickly, so the Painter could get to the next job..

Over the decades, I have had the absolute best success with slower speeds, letting the newer technology compounds and foam pad products work longer and finish down most of the time, good enough to go to LSP..

The speeds that work best for my current set up - Makita 9227C, Lake Country yellow 5" backing plate, 5.5" Lake Country Hydro-Tech Cyan Foam pads, and the compound of my choice starts at
lowest start up of 600 rpm to get everything acquainted and spread out so there is no Sling, and runs up to 1000 rpm sometimes a little higher if I want to speed up the process, but always making sure that I keep just enough moisture on the pad so that everything (compound and paintwork), gets a thorough workout, using sometimes a lot of downward pressure (because the paint is very hard, or very scratched, etc.,), sometimes less downward pressure - but there is always downward pressure on the paint...

My demands of myself are to get the product worked correctly for that paintwork that day, get absolutely no Sling or Dusting, and most importantly, get as much clarity and gloss as can be had for the time paid for by the Client...

And yes, I always, just give it a little more extra, because I love what Im doing, I love to see all vehicles look their best, and yes, it all has to Match, panel to panel.. :)

I have used a lot of Meguiars 105 since it was first invented, then Meguiars 101, sneaked in to the USA from Belgium, before it was officially sold here, ( I know, the things we do..), Meguiars 205, and all of the Menzerna Line of Compounds and Polishes, since I did several hundred German cars of all makes for awhile when I lived in WA...

Meguiars 105 was an interesting product back then as it was kind of thick and would work for a few minutes and then dry up suddenly, and turn into a big mess, slinging sometimes product and for sure a lot of dust everywhere..

I experimented with it and found it just needed a little more moisture to keep it working longer and then it would easily correct and finish down incredibly well with no issues once it got past that first dry-out hiccup...

I got into the Optimum line when they first came on board and tried their Compound and it was ok, but I really liked their Hyper Polish once I got it out of that dang spray bottle messy-ness.. :)
Just remember that Optimum compounds and polishes keep working and dont break down, but worked correctly, they will consistently give me great results..

I usually pick up Menzerna for most things to get a really good correction quickly..

Have also used a lot of Sonax Perfect Finish - an incredibly talented compound that initially, got a lot of positive press, and then a huge blow up because it was discovered that it contained fillers and a lot of people stuck their nose up in the air and said "never in my shop, etc.," and thats fine; to each their own...

I liked that it really worked easily and even though it had fillers, it really worked well on a lot of vehicles in my Shop that NEVER came back full of defects that were hidden by the fillers, so that is my experience with that product line..

As with everything you do, if you really want to be as accurate as possible, a good IPA wipedown after a compound or polish should be able to help you see what is really on the panel - just be sure you dont scratch it, applying and removing the IPA or CarPro Eraser, etc., product, ok ?

Good Luck !
Dan F
 
Lonnie- Some might call the Cyclo a "long throw" machine, and that's what I've used for jeweling/burnishing with great results.

IMO there are a number of Finishing Polishes that'll work fine for this. All we're *really* doing is ramping up the level of finish beyond the step where we leave the finish basically marring-free. I've been happy with 1Z High Gloss and HD Polish. Depending on how hard/soft the paint is, lots of different products/pads would work fine for this.
 
I use a non diminishing and diminishing in one product from my chem facility as my jewelling polish for da and rotary
it never dries out and I spread it out at 200 then go to 900 and then 650,500, 350 and back to 200
i also jewel with my paint sealant as it has a non abrasive powder in there and Is a non filling glaze

Works fine with some polish too
i don't jewel much, only higher end services.
 
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