Buffer Trails / Holograms

B

blackf0rk

New member
:nervous: Ok, I have a problem here and I can't seem to get rid of these darn buffer trails/holograms no matter what process I use. Here's the main process: Because I'm working on a 02 GM black with heavy swirls and scratches:



PB SSR3 w/ Yellow Pad @ 1500RPM - Medium Pressure

PB SSR2.5 w/ White Pad @ 1500RPM - Medium Pressure

PB SSR w/ Black Pad @ 1500RPM - Light to No Pressure



Under halogen and florescent lamps, there's no swirls or scratch. But when I take it outside, I have mega buffer trails and holograms. So, I figure I take back the speed on the white and black polishing steps, so...I try:



PB SSR 2.5 w/ White Pad @ 750RPM - Light Pressure

PB SSR 1 w/ Black @ 750RPM - No Pressure



No swirl marks in the sun now, but those buffer trails are still there. Not has bad as last time, but gone kind of. So I try this:



PB SSR1 w/ Black Pad @ 250-500RPM - No Pressure



Same thing. Buffer Trials. So I then try this process:



PB SSR2.5 w/ White pad @ 1000RPM - Light Pressure

PB SSR1 w/Blue pad @ 1000RPM - No Pressure



Buffer Trails are almost not apparent, but still readily seen when walking around the hood. So I thought maybe I was spinning the blue pad a little too fast, so I try spinning the blue pad with PB SRR1 @ 500RPM and @ 250RPM and the buffer trails will not go away.



I'm working the SSRs in till they clear, just before they start to powder. Any advice with these pesky buffer trails?
 
Some product and paint combinations won't finish on a rotary without some trails.



Seems you've done everything you can with the products, pads, and paint finish that you possibly could do. Kudos for the effort



If you're sticking with the same products and pads, then this is where a Cyclo, Porter Cable, UDM, etc...something dual action is mandatory for removing the trails.



Another option is to use a different polish and/or pad combination.
 
I'm not an expert on the SSR range, so hopefully someone can chime in with the specifics on the use of these to get the best from them on the rotary...



A couple of generics though: what size area are you working at a time? If the area is too large (>2'x2') then hte polish will be drying the vanishing before hte abrasives break down, resulting in the hologram marks that you are seeing as frequently they are caused by not fully breaking down the polish.



Also: how fast are you moving the machine across the paint? I find a steady machine pace, a flowing pace of about 2"/sec back and forth seems to work for me, move the machine too fast and light holograms can be inflicted, though this depends a lot on the paintwork you are addressing the and the abrasives in the polish you are using...
 
Try the SSR1 with a white pad, should not have problems getting them out. It might be your technique if you are not used to rotary work.
 
Whose pads are you using? Lake Country. If so I would change your finishing product.

Optimum polish or Menzerna FPII.
 
if you're sticking with the SSR line, I think you're using pads that are too soft!



It should be SSR3 Orange, SSR2.5 White, SSR1 White, SSR1 is a FINISHING polish and will clean it up really well.
 
Well, I tried the white pad with SSR1 like many had suggested but it still leaves buffer trails. I tried it many different ways and speeds. Even at about 500RPM with little to no pressure it leaves trails! So, I tried SSR1 with a blue finishing pad and that seemed to remove the buffer trails.



I still don't know why the White pad keeps getting suggested? I've used the black pad (which is softer than the white pad) and that is even leaving trails. And why do you think that the white pad is too soft?



Also, Lake Country states that the black pad is used for removing buffer trails and swirls. Yet with this pad I still get them. :(
 
Sometimes softer isn't the answer, as weird as that seems. I've had cars where FPII/106ff will leave light halo's on a white pad, but on an orange it cleans them right up; usually those are harder paints though. Personally I never had much luck with SSR1 as a solid finishing polish via rotary (on soft paint). You may want to see if you can get some Meguairs 80 locally or something, just to give it a try.
 
I'm not a PB's expert so I may be all wrong here. from your explanation of each step, it's possible that your working them all for too long and your just starting to dry buff and bingo, holograms.



Usually if you use every product at 1300 to 1500 and then finish down at 750 to 900, you won't get holograms even with a yellow pad and definately not with a black or blue

I suggest switching finishing products.
 
m4gician said:
I think you're using pads that are too soft!
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blackf0rk said:
I still don't know why the White pad keeps getting suggested? I've used the black pad (which is softer than the white pad) and that is even leaving trails. And why do you think that the white pad is too soft?
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SVR is right on the money, I've never had trails after buffing - even using a yellow pad and a compound, and I owe it all to the "zenith" method - start buffing at 600-900 - work it in at 1200-1500, ease back to 900-600 to finish. Don't try to do too much area at once, just what you can comfortably handle without moving around a lot.
 
blackf0rk said:
Well, I tried the white pad with SSR1 like many had suggested but it still leaves buffer trails. I tried it many different ways and speeds. Even at about 500RPM with little to no pressure it leaves trails! So, I tried SSR1 with a blue finishing pad and that seemed to remove the buffer trails.



I still don't know why the White pad keeps getting suggested? I've used the black pad (which is softer than the white pad) and that is even leaving trails. And why do you think that the white pad is too soft?



Also, Lake Country states that the black pad is used for removing buffer trails and swirls. Yet with this pad I still get them. :(
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Before I got comfortable with a rotary, I would use a dual action with a 2000grit fairly fine polish and a light cut pad to finish, never had swirls, still use this technique on some black cars
 
I actually have been running at about 1800 with a polish with a foam pad after compounding the car at 1600 with a wool pad. This corrects most swirls and trails that are left. Be extremely carefull around edges and curves as to not burn the paint. As suggested by PRB a cyclo is an excelent option for removing swirls for the edges and tight areas that you can't fit the large pads in. The 1200-1500 range sometimes is not enough to level the paint in various cases. ALWAYS START LOW RPM in a 2'x2' section and see what RPM and pad combo is needed. I can't stress this enough. Anouther suggestion is to buy a set of 500W halogen light poles when you detail, that way when you are polishing you will see your swirls that you need to remove from your compounding step as if you were detail in the sun (Minus the heat on the paint). You want a 60-80 deg projection angle of the light that way the swirl will show a void space yet the panel stays lit. hope that helps!



:buffing:
 
gte959s said:
I actually have been running at about 1800 with a polish with a foam pad after compounding the car at 1600 with a wool pad. This corrects most swirls and trails that are left. Be extremely carefull around edges and curves as to not burn the paint. As suggested by PRB a cyclo is an excelent option for removing swirls for the edges and tight areas that you can't fit the large pads in. The 1200-1500 range sometimes is not enough to level the paint in various cases. ALWAYS START LOW RPM in a 2'x2' section and see what RPM and pad combo is needed. I can't stress this enough. Anouther suggestion is to buy a set of 500W halogen light poles when you detail, that way when you are polishing you will see your swirls that you need to remove from your compounding step as if you were detail in the sun (Minus the heat on the paint). You want a 60-80 deg projection angle of the light that way the swirl will show a void space yet the panel stays lit. hope that helps!



:buffing:
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Ok, this is the exact kind of post that confuses me. I see these suggestions all over autopia (Work in a 2'x2' area, use halogens, use the least aggressive pad combo etc etc). Yet on this very thread, you have users saying that a 2'x2' area is too large, and that starting with black or blue or white are pads that are not aggressive enough. Also, Halogens do not show buffer trails. They show swirls and scratches, but not buffer trails / holograms. At least mine don't.
 
Finishing polishes work best for me at 1500 and moving the machine slowly - 1-2" per second. I would bet money that you're working the machine side to side too quickly - the speed that finishes down best for me feels very slow and I have to keep reminding myself that I'm doing the right thing - the speed that feels right leaves horrific micromarring.



2X2 shouldn't be too large of an area for a rotary. I don't really like halogens for rotary polishing - if I can't inspect the results in sunlight, I finish with a Cyclo and green Edge pads - the final finish is perhaps inferior to what a rotary/black pad will produce, but it eliminates the risk of looking like a hack once the sun comes out.



To be completely honest, you might want to try another polish line. The SSR's really seem to be tuned for a dual action machine - I had previous difficulty finishing down with them. I really like to polish with Menzerna in the afternoon sun (not as intense) so I can see my results as they happen. White and black pads are both good, you might want to go with white as black may not have the cut to remove deeper holograms.
 
blackf0rk said:
Ok, this is the exact kind of post that confuses me. I see these suggestions all over autopia (Work in a 2'x2' area, use halogens, use the least aggressive pad combo etc etc). Yet on this very thread, you have users saying that a 2'x2' area is too large, and that starting with black or blue or white are pads that are not aggressive enough. Also, Halogens do not show buffer trails. They show swirls and scratches, but not buffer trails / holograms. At least mine don't.
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I believe you have to do enough cars to know that a"roughly" 2'X2'+/-.5' gives you a little room to work the machine back and forth in an s or z style motion (as you would do on the whole car). For instance 1'x1' can work too, but keep in mind there may be some dust and film produced at the edges that can migrate over to the clean spot because no ones perfect all of the time, so this leaves you an even smaller complete section to look at. The main point people are making is that detailing with a rotary is an art, not a science so forget the "what are the exact dimensions, presure rating, temperature and denisty of the air surrounding air". The distributer or manufacture can give you the correct specification that they feel their product works at, but keep in mind you have to understand the paint you are working with too. Thats why you have to test a certain area. 2x2 is arbitrarly the size people have chosen.



Now pad selection is key here. People suggest using pads that are not strong enough because we know as soon as you F something up with a pad that was too aggressive that you will probably not continue your career in machine polishing as quick as you would if progressivly move into the righ pad due to fear of breaking something else. Its better to play smart than dumb.



As far as halogens not showing buffer trails I find hard to believe, maybe low wattage thats possible for it not to show up, but the 1000 watt and 500watt should show it. mine do at least. I have a heavey duty pair from home depot if that helps. Also angle the light is hitting the surface of the car is important.



Lighten up on the forum! Learn from everyones mistakes. Dont take everything as from the bible on here either.
 
im not at all familar with the PBs products but if i were you... id just use whatever you have that does the best at removing swril marks and use a finishing pad with your pc and just do small sections of the car that have the buffer trails and hollagrams. it should clean them right up and not make more. this method worked for me when i first started using a rotary and couldnt get it perfect at first.
 
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