Perfecting Black....

L

LeadingEdgeDetail

New member
Anyone else find that non-metallic black is next to impossible to get perfect?



I tried almost everything I have, and achieved nearly perfect results... At the end of it using a 4" Orange pad with Optimum Compound got the swirl marks completely out, but I was left with TONS of micromarring...



Now getting rid of the micromarring is a little tougher... Polishing pad with Optimum Polish made it better, but still wasn't perfect in direct sunlight... Optimum Compound on a white pad first, followed by OP acheieved the best result I could get...



I even tried the rotary with OP and a polishing pad, but left buffer trails...



It seems that OP/Polishing pad is leaving a little bit of micromarring itself... Brand new pads, as well as clean used pads.



And then my MF towels were also micromarring, even brand new ones... Only thing I didn't try was washing brand new MF's and then using them...



After a coat or two of Meg's #16 the finish was 98% perfect, with only the slightest hint there was micromarring...



I'm thinking that maybe Menzerna polishes would work better than OP?



Thoughts?
 
The best for me is using the Blackfire SRC finishing polish which is just Menzerna with some more oils and then use that on a rotary with the blue P2's from exceldetail.com, spread everything out at around 500 rpm's work it up to 1k for a pass then mayme up to 1.5k for a pass or two then down under 1k for a finishing pass. Finishes like glass. Then put on your favorite LSP or glaxe and then LSP. I have been using CMW on straight black with fantastic results. I have to thank RAG and Scottwax for these ideas!
 
I had the same problem until I got a rotary. Once you perfect the rotary you will be able to perfect black. If you are getting trails with OP and the rotary, you are using too much polish and or not buffing till almost clear. You also need to slow the rpms down, when you are just about finished, to no more than about 1200-1500. This also depends on how hard the clear is as well. Make slow passes as well, just like you would with a PC. If the paint is really soft then use a finishing pad and maybe some RMG or poli seal.
 
So far I have not done many non metallic blacks but those I have came up fantastic

Though it took alot of steps and clearkote especially.



I like to finish down with last product at 900 rpm and move slowly

My new worklights help. No idea how I did so well with just flouro's before
 
I had owned a few non-metallic black cars recently.

I got the best results with Optimum Polish (mixed with Optimum Compound on deep marks) with a rotaty followed with Menzerna FPII using Edge 2000 wave pads on a Porter Cable. Then I applied Zaino Z5pro and Nattys Blue by hand. I maintained it with FPII as swirls came back from regular washing.

I tried Poorboys SSR series and liked the finish from SSR 1 but didnt like SSR2.5.



The SAAB has the softest clear coat I have ever worked on, you could blow on it and get it swirled up.

The Audi had a much harder clear coat, it required more aggressive methods to remove swirls, but less were induced by regular washing.





The cars were new and garage kept, the last one was a 06 SAAB, pictures of it are all over this site.
 
You using IPA wipe to check the repairs as you go? Bright halogen lighting is also useful to have. I did an E36 BMW recently that was the same but steadily decreasing the pressure on the rotary with 106ff and a soft grey pad left it perfect for a hand application of KAIO and a nice hit of Swissol Onyx. I wouldn't have applied the AIO by machine at that point, I think out of fear!!



Sweepy
 
Believe me I know what you are talking about!! I have both a Cyclo and PC and when it comes to finishing polishing on my black Street rod the PC comes out and also the white finishing pad. I have not found anything that will finish non metallic black like POR85RD now I have not tried the new replacement since I have a half bottle left. I start the finial polishing process with moderate down force on the PC and lessen force as the product breaks down to almost must the weight of the PC. Most people use a PC and white pad but I do believe that I can put RMG down better by hand than PC – just seems not to leave any marks on the surface what so ever. After a coat of RMG I have been using PS for a LSP but this year I will be trying Victory Wax. I have also found that I can put RMG over the PS and then another layer of PS to clean up the surface as need.



I know that it is covering up the faults but it is a show car and even very minor spider webbing is looked at as a negative. When I drive my car to show and clean it back up you will create some swirls especially on the front of the car and this eliminates the need for weekly polishing.



39_Ford_059.jpg
 
I also found that RMG with a white pad on PC left TONS of micromarring, and looked HORRIBLE! Almost like it was trying to add flake... It took me nearly 20 minutes to fix the crap that RMG left... And RMG is my favorite glaze!



The car is a '55 Beetle Convertible, painted black 8 years ago.
 
DennisH said:
..... I have not found anything that will finish non metallic black like POR85RD
Click to expand...







I agree with DennisH I haven't found anything that finishes on black as well as Menzerna finishing polishes.





Here is a before and after haze removal with FP:



hazing_before.jpg




hazing_after.jpg




Here is a side by side after one pass with ssr3 and one pass with PO85RD:



bna_04.jpg
 
StumpyDetailing said:
I also found that RMG with a white pad on PC left TONS of micromapping, and looked HORRIBLE! Almost like it was trying to add flake... It took me nearly 20 minutes to fix the crap that RMG left... And RMG is my favorite glaze!



The car is a '55 Beetle Convertible, painted black 8 years ago.
Click to expand...



You should be using a finishing pad like the LC black finishing pad with RMG. You do not want a pad with any cutting ability when using a glaze. The rotary with a finishing pad with RMG is absolutely awesome, and I find it next to impossible to leave any trails or holograms behind. A rotary will give you the brightest and clearest finish possible. Those of you who have switched from PC to rotary for final finishing will know what I'm talking about.
 
I haven't done much on black since b/c paint became common, but I used to get it nice without a rotary back in the days of single stage lacquer. Needed to use a wide range of products though and the final polishes were always almost nonabrasive. More recently, I got a black rent-a-Suburban micro-marring-free with the Cyclo, again, didn't need the rotary (did use it for the major correction though). But that had medium-hard clear and I've never tackled the extremely soft b/c blacks that I've heard about here...can't imagine them being softer/more delicate than old-school black lacquer though.



I suppose the Cyclo might just be *that* much better than the PC in this regard, but we used to get black nice by hand...you know, the old "hand-rubbed lacquer" finish. I wonder if the real problem is the initial cut of the products being used these days, maybe it simply takes something with less initial bite to avoid those little hook-shaped marks :nixweiss



Oh, and props to blkyukon for the great photo :xyxthumbs



I'd like somebody to try 1z Pro MP on one of the *super soft* blacks some time, by Cyclo (and/or PC but I'd expect the Cyclo to do better). I prefer the finish that Pro MP leaves over that of Menzerna FP so I'm curious about how it'd work in this situation. And if *that* caused micromarring, I'd be curious how the 1z MetallicPolishWax would do.



I know, I know, I have this "not finishing with the rotary" on the brain but I've simply never been in a situation where I had to do it. When the Volvo's repaint was still curing, Meg's #80 would haze it like sandpaper (really astounded me!) and I still got it sorted out with the Cyclo, just had to find the right product.
 
Accumulator said:
I haven't done much on black since b/c paint became common, but I used to get it nice without a rotary back in the days of single stage lacquer. Needed to use a wide range of products though and the final polishes were always almost nonabrasive. More recently, I got a black rent-a-Suburban micro-marring-free with the Cyclo, again, didn't need the rotary (did use it for the major correction though). But that had medium-hard clear and I've never tackled the extremely soft b/c blacks that I've heard about here...can't imagine them being softer/more delicate than old-school black lacquer though.



I suppose the Cyclo might just be *that* much better than the PC in this regard, but we used to get black nice by hand...you know, the old "hand-rubbed lacquer" finish. I wonder if the real problem is the initial cut of the products being used these days, maybe it simply takes something with less initial bite to avoid those little hook-shaped marks :nixweiss



Oh, and props to blkyukon for the great photo :xyxthumbs



I'd like somebody to try 1z Pro MP on one of the *super soft* blacks some time, by Cyclo (and/or PC but I'd expect the Cyclo to do better). I prefer the finish that Pro MP leaves over that of Menzerna FP so I'm curious about how it'd work in this situation. And if *that* caused micromarring, I'd be curious how the 1z MetallicPolishWax would do.



I know, I know, I have this "not finishing with the rotary" on the brain but I've simply never been in a situation where I had to do it. When the Volvo's repaint was still curing, Meg's #80 would haze it like sandpaper (really astounded me!) and I still got it sorted out with the Cyclo, just had to find the right product.
Click to expand...



Hey Accumulator. I think your right about the cyclo finishing better than the PC. I have all the 1Z polishes and could never get a mar free finish on soft black paint with them. I tried every type of pad with them but it was the PC that was leaving those little hook marks. Once I switched to a rotary all the marks are gone and I have a brighter finish as well. Don't get me wrong the PC is a good polisher but it has it's limits.
 
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