How many times can you use M105 before wearing through the clear?

You are correct on one part of the issue.



What I should have written was that which you stated, that they pass the guidelines etc.



We don't try to hide behind a wall, and that is what I am seeing that is of a concern to some here on the forum.



The reason for this thread in the first place, perhaps??



Many are seeking some straight forward, no bull, information regarding products that they like, they use and are satisfied with the performance of, but just want to have their questions answered through data that is in complaince with the laws and regulations.



We don't sell much, if any, chemical products to this forum's memebers, oh sure, a couple of orders for ABC, etc, but no volume, it is not our market.



But, if any want an MSDS, one that is accepted by the big boys of the automotive world, then we provide it.



Is not the issue, "why don't some provide this information, what is their problem?" ?



The next issue was "what constitutes hazardous?", then it went to explaining this and that, toxic, carcinigenic.



All of that is available to everyone here.



Most of what is being asked is available on line from many sources, the public libarary etc, regarding the chemical components used and shown on "honest" MSDS's, the CAS #'s, all the documented information is out there.



I am not going to be the sole source of this.



But, then again, there is the issue of understanding what the information is providing the reader.



That is why there is the confusion, but I don't have an answer for that one, just know that it takes a lot of effort to search through and use logic to find answers.
 
On a typical standard production car, how many times could you use M105 with a DA before going through the clear. For example, could I use M105 at least 3 to 5 times on most paints over it's life without usually worrying?
 
that is probaly a hard questions to answer. Depends on how much clear you have to start with, pressure you are using, pads, etc. Maybe I am wrong but I am interested to see what the other have to say.
 
I've been asking the same question for years.

I've yet to get any kind of a definitive answer.

All I can do is relate my personal experience. When I first got my PC, I had a red 2000 Pontiac Firebird. I polished it at least 10 times in 8 years. (It was my guinea pig car! The one that I tried all kinds of new polishes and pads on.)

I never went through the clear. In fact, I don't even think I was close. When I traded in the car it looked brand new!
 
I've owned my 2005 Crown Vic (daily driver) since new and have polished it approximately 8 times in 4.5 years with Menzerna Intensive and Final Polish and Lake Country Orange and White pads. (Well, the first time I only used Final Polish and White pads...) I haven't went through the clear yet and, although I don't have a measuring instrument, I'd bet that I'm not close.
 
RootsRadical said:
I've owned my 2005 Crown Vic (daily driver) since new and have polished it approximately 8 times in 4.5 years with Menzerna Intensive and Final Polish and Lake Country Orange and White pads. (Well, the first time I only used Final Polish and White pads...) I haven't went through the clear yet and, although I don't have a measuring instrument, I'd bet that I'm not close.
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So based on my experience and Roots, 8-10 seems like a safe number. I think going through the clear is a pretty rare event.
 
I like broker's response because I agree in that it's based on what you are working with and the application techniques. With those variables unknown it's hard to offer a definitive answer. The best answer offered would be to obtain a thickness using a decent paint thickness gauge and have at your paint. Then another measurement after the process would help quantify how much you're removing. You can then simply factor out the number of times to remove your paint but I bet it would exceed the life of the car (again, depending on starting thickness and technique used). The only caution to this approach is PTG's can't really determine your specific clearcoat thickness (I don't think).

I don't want to divert off this board but I have found the best info to come directly from the manufacturer and in this case Megiuars. I'm a big fan of going directly to the folks who produce the product.
 
Puckman said:
I don't want to divert off this board but I have found the best info to come directly from the manufacturer and in this case Megiuars. I'm a big fan of going directly to the folks who produce the product.
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I asked Meguiars once and they dodged the question. You will not likely get any concrete answer since it depends so I am asking about personal experiences.

Maybe the questions should be:

Hhow many times have you done full corrections with a DA on the same paint? Have you had an issues?
 
Ah, ok, gotcha. Too bad they (Meg's) wouldn't answer but the rephrased question is perfect and would offer more real world answers. I wish I could offer some info to you but I've not used M105 more than once on mine. Hopefully there are some here who have used it per your question i.e. multiple times on the same paint.

This is a great question because of the abilities of M105 and their use of non diminishing abrasives. As I understand the mechanical action of this product it continues to cut the longer you use it and it would be a logical concern to wonder about any potential damage down the road. I'll be following this thread because I love that stuff!
 
broker99 said:
that is probaly a hard questions to answer. Depends on how much clear you have to start with, pressure you are using, pads, etc.
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Absolutely correct. Many, many factors to consider.

No one is going to come out and say... "You can polish this car 27 times before going through the clearcoat."

Because if someone goes through the clear on polishing #24, the guy who made that statement is going to get sued!!!!:banghead::out:
 
IME I usually remove .1 mill and never more then .2 when doing an extreme correction. .2 mill removal is pretty rare. Once you get your car corrected, you should not have to do a heavy correction for 12-18 months if you are using proper washing techniques.

On a newer C6 vette I can tell you that the clear is approx 3.5 mills thick. But I can not tell you how thick the clear is on any metal based panel.
 
gmblack3 said:
IME I usually remove .1 mill and never more then .2 when doing an extreme correction. .2 mill removal is pretty rare. On a newer C6 vette I can tell you that the clear is approx 3.5 mills thick.
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Excellent information. Anyone else have info like this for other types of vehicles?
 
gmblack3 said:
IME I usually remove .1 mill and never more then .2 when doing an extreme correction. .2 mill removal is pretty rare. Once you get your car corrected, you should not have to do a heavy correction for 12-18 months if you are using proper washing techniques.

On a newer C6 vette I can tell you that the clear is approx 3.5 mills thick. But I can not tell you how thick the clear is on any metal based panel.
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Does that number reflect the thickness of the paint and clear coat above the surface or, can it break down just the clear coat above the paint......?


Thanks......Dave
 
Dave1 said:
Does that number reflect the thickness of the paint and clear coat above the surface or, can it break down just the clear coat above the paint......?


Thanks......Dave
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There are two types of machines, magnetic and ultrasonic.

Magnetic paint thickness gauges use a magnetic or current to detect how far away metal surface is. So the reading you get is the complete or total thickness from metal surface to the very top of the clear coat (or paint if single stage). To my knowledge there are no machines that can determine the total thickness of each coat when applied over metal. (I could be wrong).

Ultrasonic paint gages ping the surface below at different frequencies so they are able to read (for the most part) the different types of coatings (primer/basecoat/cleaecoat/ect). Some coatings may be difficult for the machine to detect (because of the similar way the waves travel through them) so they are not 100% accurate 100% of the time.

Also Ultrasonic gauges do not work on metal surfaces, only on composites such as plastic, fiberglass, and carbon fiber. Since a Corvette is plastic (and I know Bryan has used an US gauge on them) the can determine the total thickness of each layer, from plastic to primer to color to clear. Pretty cool stuff. On newer cars the primer is usually between .5- 1 mil. I have personally never measured higher then that. The color coat is usually between 1/3 and 1/2 of the clear. Some pearl and candy paints have additional layers, which in my experience is usually about .5 mil. Clear usually ranges between 2 mils up to about 5 mils, with most being around 3 or so.
 
Bunky said:
I asked Meguiars once and they dodged the question. You will not likely get any concrete answer since it depends so I am asking about personal experiences.

Maybe the questions should be:

Hhow many times have you done full corrections with a DA on the same paint? Have you had an issues?
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I have a 1.5 year old HHR which has been fully scratched (on purpose), cut, polished, and buffed (and spot wet sanded) at least 6 times in the last year will combinations of rotary, da, ro, and whatever else. It is my Guinea pig.

The total thickness of the paint (when new) on the hood was about 5 mils. After being beat on for a year I am currently at 4.7-4.9 mils depending on where you check (since I usually do a random section at a time). These have all been full corrections.

On a 2002 Black Fire Bird, I wet sanded it with 1500 grit (very)aggressively, 2000 grit, 3000 grit, then cut it numerous times with a compound before polishing and jeweling.

Total removal, about .4 mils in most places.

The amount of times a vehicle can be polished is completely dependent on a) how much paint is removed and b) how much is paint is there to start with.

Most light swirl marks penetrate VERY little into the paint's surface, just enough to catch the light (which then is reflected to look far bigger then it is).

If you wash your car extremely carefully, even if you create some visible damage, there is a very good chance that the depth of mark is no greater then .01-.02 of a mil (and probably less). To restore perfection to the paint would require a final polish and a pad. This process could theoretically repeated many times.

Of course if the damage induced is deeper from poor washing and more aggressive polishing is used then the number drops.
 
Superb info from both Bryan and Todd. Based on that, Bunky, I think you're good to go with as many M105 corrections that you need for the life of the car. While it still doesn't quantify how many for your particular case the info provided confirmed my understanding over the years that buffing even with an aggressive product won't remove enough clear to worry about (if you're doing it right which we know you do). Hell, even Todd's wetsand/compound effort removed less than I thought it would have. Of course he definitely knows what he's doing!
 
Dave1 said:
Does that number reflect the thickness of the paint and clear coat above the surface or, can it break down just the clear coat above the paint......?


Thanks......Dave
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The advanced 200 can show 1, 2 or 3 layers. My readings above are in 2 layer mode.
 
I don't know that anyone at Meguiar's "dodged" the question; there simply is no pat answer for it. You simply can not say, about ANY product, "you can only use this X number of times before going through your clear coat".

  • What tool are you using? A rotary cuts much more than a D/A.
  • What speed are you running at? 1800rpm on a rotary cuts much more than 1000 rpm, speed 6 on a D/A much more than speed 3.
  • What pads are you using? A wool cutting pad cuts much more than a light foam polishing pad.
  • How much pressure are you using? More pressure, more cut. Less pressure, less cut.
  • What's the history of the paint on the car? If you purchase a used vehicle do you know for a fact that it has never been sanded and rotary polished with a wool pad? Once? Twice?
  • What's your skill level with a given tool? Skill and the ability to think through what you're doing while machine polishing will potentially play a huge roll in this

If you're old enough to remember the old Tootsie Roll Pop commercials with the kid asking everyone "how many licks does it take to get the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?" you know that nobody could answer him. Except for the owl, who took three licks and bit into the candy, revealing the tootsie roll center. His answer? Three. A narrator's voice then repeats the question and provides his own answer: "How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Pop? The world may never know."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA5Cv_5-g8
 
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