Actual surface temperature while buffing/polishing

Jean-Claude

Jean-Claude

Keeper of the beautiful
What is the hottest you want the surface of the paint to be while buffing or polishing? What is the ideal temperature while working the product?



I am looking for actual temperatures.



I mostly use SIP, NANO and Ultra Fina. (Adjustable speed Makita)



Thanks
 
Can no one help out?



As another safety procaution I'd like to keep a temp gun with me. That would do no good if I don't know the temps.
 
ezemsm444 said:
cool to the touch huh, on sip you want the buffer speed around 1500-2000rpm minimum, its written on the bottle. After doing two smooth passes no pressure moving about 5 sec. a foot the surface is already warm. when you get up to polishing you are burnishing creating a shiny smooth surface. This would REQUIRE heat. I honestly don't know about how hot it needs to get though just out of curiousity i'll post some pictures and get some temperature readings from my temp gun i use in hvac in the morning i got to buff my top on my pickup i left pending.
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Actually the question was the IDEAL tempature....



Ideally you want the paint completely 'cool to the touch'.



I am not sure why you think that heat is necessary to polish the paint. Polishing is a mechanical process where abrasives are grinding away at the uppermost layer of the paint, heat has NOTHING to do with it. Modern catalized clearcoats do not 'reflow' or become softer (to a measurable difference that would make polishing easier).



Heat is a by product of the mechanical process (friction). As you noted, a couple quick passes with SIP can heat the paint quickly, but this is also very dependent on the amount of pressure, rpm, size of the pad, type of paint, tempature, humidity, pad type, amount of polish, and starting tempature of the surface (to name a few things). On a hot humid day, with a stiff orange pad, on soft Porsche paint, with SIP you are going to QUICKLY heat (and perhaps overheat) the paint.



SIP (for all its quirkiness) is pretty forgiving of surface tempature and the thick lubricants in the polish flow better when the surface is warmer. But now we are getting into specific questions regarding specific polishes vs. the more generic question...
 
As you yourself said, heat is a by-product of friction. You can not polish/buff without friction. At some point friction/heat is going to degrade quality or possibly damage. I am asking at what realistic temperature buffing/polishing is most effective. Seeing how it's impossible to buff/polish without heat.



I am not trying to be rude. But you seem to want to mince words and bicker over semantics. I think most people can understand exactly what I asked.(not that you didn't)



I am looking for help, not a fight over semantics.



Consider your ambiguous comment about surface temp and SIP(you didn't offer any real information). Practically everyone reading this knows how to use SIP. I am asking to be more informed about a product than just that it is easy to use(which is what you said, more or less).



ezem, thanks for your personal experience. If no one else can offer any new info, I suppose I will explore the subject myself.







TH0001 said:
Actually the question was the IDEAL tempature....



Ideally you want the paint completely 'cool to the touch'.



I am not sure why you think that heat is necessary to polish the paint. Polishing is a mechanical process where abrasives are grinding away at the uppermost layer of the paint, heat has NOTHING to do with it. Modern catalized clearcoats do not 'reflow' or become softer (to a measurable difference that would make polishing easier).



Heat is a by product of the mechanical process (friction). As you noted, a couple quick passes with SIP can heat the paint quickly, but this is also very dependent on the amount of pressure, rpm, size of the pad, type of paint, tempature, humidity, pad type, amount of polish, and starting tempature of the surface (to name a few things). On a hot humid day, with a stiff orange pad, on soft Porsche paint, with SIP you are going to QUICKLY heat (and perhaps overheat) the paint.



SIP (for all its quirkiness) is pretty forgiving of surface tempature and the thick lubricants in the polish flow better when the surface is warmer. But now we are getting into specific questions regarding specific polishes vs. the more generic question...
Click to expand...
 
There use to be an article about this on Automotive International > Home But since they redid the website I cant find it anymore, nor can I remember the temp they said to stay under. Id shoot them an email and ask for the article. That will answer your question about max surface temps while buffing.



As for the ideal temperature while buffing, that will vary with every product whether its surface temp or outdoor temp. I believe creating heat will actually result in some products performing better. Obviously there are limits to how hot you can get the paint. I also think some polishes dont do too well in colder outdoor temps. But I havent had a problem with the polishes Ive used in 90*+. My polishing is done in a garage, sometimes with AC, sometimes not.
 
Jean-Claude said:
As you yourself said, heat is a by-product of friction. You can not polish/buff without friction. At some point friction/heat is going to degrade quality or possibly damage.
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Correct, heat is a by product of friction, but they are seperate. If you are asking at what friction SIP is most effective, I wouldn't know how to answer. However I took it as you where asking at what tempature is SIP most effective... If I mistook your question I apologize, but I thought my answer was very clear and that there is no idea tempature to work a polish. Heat is unwanted and not needed (but unavoidable). Instead of quoting some tempature I made up in my head, I gave a detailed account (that some might learn from). If I were (where) to quote a temapture it would get passed around and regurgated on forums to the point of becoming an other false inter-fact.



I am asking at what realistic temperature buffing/polishing is most effective. Seeing how it's impossible to buff/polish without heat.
Click to expand...



I understand your question. If you would like a more specific answer, I will do my best. There is NO best tempature and ideally it would be cool enough to avoid damage to the paint. IMO, it would be as cool as possible. The focus of paint correction is remove defects this should be the goal. Use the correct procedure, pressure, pad speed, movement speed, and pad selection to effectively remove the defects. Paint (as unwanted and not predictable) tempature is a by product and really plays such a small point as being almost unwanted.



Example: SIP with a Lake Country Orange Pad on Porsche paint in high humidity (noticing the variables) will generally super heat the paint, even under low pressure and low RPM. It can be almost impossible to polish the paint with this combination with out overheating the paint. What if the tempature changes outside. Should you slow your machine to induce less heat (and require more passes) just to keep the tempature ideal?



The best advice you will recieve on this subject (and the most accurate answer, IME) is to adjust your techinique get the required results, while never letting the paint get so hot that it painful to the touch.



I am not trying to be rude. But you seem to want to mince words and bicker over semantics. I think most people can understand exactly what I asked.(not that you didn't)
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You are being rude but I don't want to mince words, I want to use specific terminology to avoid the confusion that can happen on the internet.



I am looking for help, not a fight over semantics.
Click to expand...



And I felt that my answer was full of useful information that could help you, sorry that it didn't....



Consider your ambiguous comment about surface temp and SIP(you didn't offer any real information).
Click to expand...



Actually I didn't give you an answer to your question (because there is no correct answer). Instead I provided you with information to allow you to draw your own conclusion.



Practically everyone reading this knows how to use SIP. I am asking to be more informed about a product than just that it is easy to use(which is what you said, more or less).
Click to expand...



Sorry you thought my explanation was beneath you. So here you.... 175 degree works best!!! Aim for this tempature above all else...



ezem, thanks for your personal experience. If no one else can offer any new info, I suppose I will explore the subject myself.
Click to expand...



Your whole post is just wierd. I provided factual information that could help you explore this yourself and you scoff at it, then say you are going to do the research. You will find (after looking hard enough) that the answers I gave are well searched and will be the same conclusions you have recieved. Then you can post your experience for somebody else asking the question you asked yesterday and hopefully they will share with you the same grattitude you shared with me today.



Merry Christmas



Todd
 
Jean-Claude said:
What is the hottest you want the surface of the paint to be while buffing or polishing? What is the ideal temperature while working the product?



I am looking for actual temperatures.



I mostly use SIP, NANO and Ultra Fina. (Adjustable speed Makita)



Thanks
Click to expand...



I'm sorry if my replies mislead your search, since you mentioned surface temperature while buffing I thought to myself well i'll see tommorrow i never really tried to measure the temperature while buffing. Maybe I might help, if it works for me it might for you. But now that I see what you are asking, I have removed my posts to prevent them from being a future distraction.



Sorry to all, Sam
 
ezemsm444 said:
I'm sorry if my replies mislead your search, since you said while buffing I thought to myself well i'll see tommorrow i never really tried to measure the temperature while buffing. Maybe I might help, if it works for me it might for you. But now that I see what you are asking, I have removed my posts to prevent them from being a future distraction.



Sorry to all, Sam
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Sam, I didn't think your posts where misleading at all. The point of this forum is to have discussions and help eachother learn. At least in my opinion.
 
TH0001 said:
Sam, I didn't think your posts where misleading at all. The point of this forum is to have discussions and help eachother learn. At least in my opinion.
Click to expand...



Thanks well if it helps, I've had to do a bunch of cars exposed to sunlight with upper 90 degree weather with no humidity. The surface gets real hot after acouple of passes the polish begins to dry and the speeds have to be around 2000 rpm maximum. Anything higher than that, curves are just asking to be burnt. Also the pinstripping becomes very soft as well. (burned accouple)
 
TH0001 said:
There is NO best tempature and ideally it would be cool enough to avoid damage to the paint. IMO, it would be as cool as possible, while never letting the paint get so hot that it painful to the touch.
Click to expand...





^^^Here's your answer unless you plan on purchasing a temp paint sensor and investing countless hours.
 
Every product/surface has an acceptable temperature threshold. If you really believe that there's not actually a specific temperature that you will get ideal results from, inside that threshold, that's fine. If you think that going off your feel and experience is enough to get your desired results, that's a fine attitude. It has netted you a fine business. I have the same ability to fly by the feel of the situation. What I am looking for is something more than just feel. I am looking to improve the method/results with scientific data.



May I ask you if you've actually researched the subject yourself? Maybe you've read articles that discuss actual surface temperature thresholds and effectiveness? If so, I suppose their stance is also that there's no answer...if that's the case, please link the article or let me know where I can find it. I'd like to see what they say.



Is your opinion on the subject("there is no correct answer") based on your knowledge off actual research, or is it based on a hunch or a presumption?



You believe I am being rude. While I feel I've been candid/frank and not rude, you're entitled to feel that way. *edit*- I apologize if I came across rude. Not my intentions and you don't have to accept that if you don't want.



We can do the break-down argument(in my opinion this is just a way of picking a whole thought apart and getting around an idea) of every post doing the multi-quote thing. I am not interested in that. I am after facts on the subject.



With that in mind, I really look forward to hearing whether your opinion("there's no answer") is based off of actual research on the subject, or a presumption you have. It's my presumption that you have no actual research on the subject and you're arguing your opinion.



Show me the research on the subject, then tell me I'm being foolish suggesting I will try to find the answer myself. I'm not so foolhardy that I would turn down someone's research. That's what I am after. I am not after unsupported opinions.



TH0001 said:
Correct, heat is a by product of friction, but they are seperate. If you are asking at what friction SIP is most effective, I wouldn't know how to answer. However I took it as you where asking at what tempature is SIP most effective... If I mistook your question I apologize, but I thought my answer was very clear and that there is no idea tempature to work a polish. Heat is unwanted and not needed (but unavoidable). Instead of quoting some tempature I made up in my head, I gave a detailed account (that some might learn from). If I were (where) to quote a temapture it would get passed around and regurgated on forums to the point of becoming an other false inter-fact.







I understand your question. If you would like a more specific answer, I will do my best. There is NO best tempature and ideally it would be cool enough to avoid damage to the paint. IMO, it would be as cool as possible. The focus of paint correction is remove defects this should be the goal. Use the correct procedure, pressure, pad speed, movement speed, and pad selection to effectively remove the defects. Paint (as unwanted and not predictable) tempature is a by product and really plays such a small point as being almost unwanted.



Example: SIP with a Lake Country Orange Pad on Porsche paint in high humidity (noticing the variables) will generally super heat the paint, even under low pressure and low RPM. It can be almost impossible to polish the paint with this combination with out overheating the paint. What if the tempature changes outside. Should you slow your machine to induce less heat (and require more passes) just to keep the tempature ideal?



The best advice you will recieve on this subject (and the most accurate answer, IME) is to adjust your techinique get the required results, while never letting the paint get so hot that it painful to the touch.







You are being rude but I don't want to mince words, I want to use specific terminology to avoid the confusion that can happen on the internet.







And I felt that my answer was full of useful information that could help you, sorry that it didn't....







Actually I didn't give you an answer to your question (because there is no correct answer). Instead I provided you with information to allow you to draw your own conclusion.







Sorry you thought my explanation was beneath you. So here you.... 175 degree works best!!! Aim for this tempature above all else...







Your whole post is just wierd. I provided factual information that could help you explore this yourself and you scoff at it, then say you are going to do the research. You will find (after looking hard enough) that the answers I gave are well searched and will be the same conclusions you have recieved. Then you can post your experience for somebody else asking the question you asked yesterday and hopefully they will share with you the same grattitude you shared with me today.



Merry Christmas



Todd
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My point is that if your main focus is on the tempature of the paint during polishing then you are missing the big picture. Should you use a more aggressive compound because you cannot get the paint up to tempature (even when its not needed)?



Tempature plays such a little role (esp on catalized clearcoats) that it doesn't matter.



I don't know if I sound rude or not but it sounds to me like you have spent way to much time reading on how to detail and not enough time doing it.



Every paint is different so every paint system will have a different reaction to polishing (and this is dependent on the 1,000,000 or so variables of the paint itself, from thickness of the each coat, including the metal or plastic underneath, the type of paint, the day it was sprayed, the way it was coated, the make up of the pigment, etc, etc).



Given the dynamic nature of the enviroment (and the other 1000 or so variables) you are going to be locked into to a mathmatical equation for predicting the idea tempature of each paint system for maximum workablity.... Now factor in that even the same polishes are made with in tolerances (and are not identical) so add that there are maybe a 1000 different polishes and compounds (and another 80-100 different foams) and you are building an equation that would impress those at MIT.



All this is even crazier (because as noted) tempature doesn't play a critical role in the polishing process, it is a by product of such. Alterting your technique to reach a certain surface tempature is often a step backwards, you technique should focus on maximal results.



Focus on the rate of abrasive breakdown (and how to manilpulate it with pressure, pad speed, etc).



Good luck in your search, I have researched it (as I stated) and I look forward to you and I having a more indpeth discussion on this when you have more experience and can fully grasp what I am saying. Best of luck.
 
Jean-Claude said:
Every product/surface has an acceptable temperature threshold. If you really believe that there's not actually a specific temperature that you will get ideal results from, inside that threshold, that's fine. If you think that going off your feel and experience is enough to get your desired results, that's a fine attitude. It has netted you a fine business. I have the same ability to fly by the feel of the situation. What I am looking for is something more than just feel. I am looking to improve the method/results with scientific data.
Click to expand...



There are so many (probably a million or so variables) the would effect your answer that you will find yourself moving backwards by chasing a magic number that likely changes with a .1% change in humidty or if the clearcoat is .000001 of a mil thinner.



May I ask you if you've actually researched the subject yourself? Maybe you've read articles that discuss actual surface temperature thresholds and effectiveness? If so, I suppose their stance is also that there's no answer...if that's the case, please link the article or let me know where I can find it. I'd like to see what they say.
Click to expand...



Yes I have. My conclusion has been printed in here a couple of times. Focus on the resuts since the tempature is a BY PRODUCT of the work done. For best results focus on the work done not the by products...



Is your opinion on the subject("there is no correct answer") based on your knowledge off actual research, or is it based on a hunch or a presumption?
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Well its not a law, its a very strong hypothesis. To prove it, you spend 3 years comming up with an ideal tempature to work your polish at, then we will get together. At this time we will get together and polish paint. You focus only on achieving a tempature and I will focus on achieving results. See who does the job quicker, more efficently, and probably removes less paint. I hope after years of calculations that the humidty, paint thickness (pre and post swelling) paint system, color, paint, tempature, etc don't change at all.



You believe I am being rude. While I feel I've been candid/frank and not rude, you're entitled to feel that way. *edit*- I apologize if I came across rude. Not my intentions and you don't have to accept that if you don't want.
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Fair enough. I am blunt as well so maybe its just the way we are.



We can do the break-down argument(in my opinion this is just a way of picking a whole thought apart and getting around an idea) of every post doing the multi-quote thing. I am not interested in that. I am after facts on the subject.
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The facts are that you are chasing a by-product of the work done when the focus should be the work done itself. Warm enough that hte lubricatents in the polish spread thin and allow the abrasives to work but not so warm that the paint is damaged.



With that in mind, I really look forward to hearing whether your opinion("there's no answer") is based off of actual research on the subject, or a presumption you have. It's my presumption that you have no actual research on the subject and you're arguing your opinion.
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Define research. Speaking to polish makers? Yes.... Speaking with pad makers? Yes..... 1000's and 1000's of hours polishing paint? Yes...







Show me the research on the subject, then tell me I'm being foolish suggesting I will try to find the answer myself. I'm not so foolhardy that I would turn down someone's research. That's what I am after. I am not after unsupported opinions.
Click to expand...



I'm not sure what you are saying. Consider me a small subject of your overall research, I can provide you with the contacts you desire (most who will tell you that I am an expert in this field) but they are likely to echo the same thoughts I have. Then what? You will polish paint for 1000's and 1000's of hours and get now where? Perhaps a doctorate in science or chemical/mechanical engineering will help?
 
I don't understand why surface temp is needed? Are you planning on buffing while measuring the suface with a paint thermometer? Sounds really unecessary and pretty unrealistic.



I can see it now, someone making a gadget that straps a paint temp meter to your head that you can point at the surface and a bell could ding when it hits a certain temp. :grinno:
 
David Fermani said:
I don't understand why surface temp is needed? Are you planning on buffing while measuring the suface with a paint thermometer? Sounds really unecessary and pretty unrealistic.
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It's not needed. We can do all the correction we need to, and have, without knowing the threshold and the ideal temps. What that information will offer is yet another safety procaution and the knowledge of what exactly is best. Knowledge is power. How can having the knowledge NOT be good?:confused: I can't see why anyone would turn a blind eye if that info was offered up.
 
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