106ff/blackfire hiding abilities...

I guess I have nothing to say. I basically use SIP or HTEC to remove my defects and use 106ff for basically bringing the gloss back. So I don't use it to remove defects unless it's on my civic. Which has yet to be seen to bring back scratches after 1.5 months.
 
So it's the friction/heat created by the white pad affecting the oils of the polish. Along with the fact that the white pad may leave micro-marring on certain paints.



Does a finishing pad create less heat, thus not affecting the oils?? Or is the lack of creating the micro-marring in the first place that resolves the issue??



BTW...thanks for this info
 
I just got some 85rd which I have mixed 75/25 with RMG. I will use it with a blue ccs pad and should get knock-out results!!
 
If you are using a rotary and use 106 on a white pad it may self induce pad abrasions on certain paints. On hard paints it will not be seen, but on certain paints it will be seen.



The blue pad has no cut and in result it will not create as much heat as the white. So the oils stay above the paint and not getting forced into the paint from friction and the forced drive of the rotary.
 
rydawg said:
If you are using a rotary and use 106 on a white pad it may self induce pad abrasions on certain paints. On hard paints it will not be seen, but on certain paints it will be seen.



The blue pad has no cut and in result it will not create as much heat as the white. So the oils stay above the paint and not getting forced into the paint from friction and the forced drive of the rotary.
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Does it matter if its a LC VC pad, Flat Pad, CCS pad? 5", 6", 8" etc?
 
I agree, I have had to use an LC blue pad to finish perfect with 106 on certain paints. I didn't realize this was some groundbreaking find though. I saw imperfections after finishing with a white pad after a wipedown, so I went to the next finest pad I had and it worked. So now on my test spot I will always wipedown after the white pad, and if its perfect, I know I dont need to use the blue, or do a complete IPA wipedown of the car when I'm done... Just a strong CW&G wash. It's not just a 106 thing either. I've experienced it with SIP when I tried to quickie one step it with a DA, and also a few from the Megs mirror glaze line.
 
i have to agree with rydawg about fillers in ANY polish! i have not yet came upon a polish without filling.. try polishing out a section for just a few seconds and wipe off the excess.. you'll notice that the swirls/holograms are not showing anymore.. wipe it down with alcohol and bam! there it is again!



the blackfire im using will make the surface smooth and glossing in 2 passes, but it takes way more than that to get it to stay that way. along with any other polish i use.
 
Of course it's going to fill, you haven't broken down the oils and the abrasive that way and the oils are going to have that filling effect

properly broken down, 106 didn't fill on the car I did yesterday, even with multiple IPA applications and a wash
 
Well if that's the story then that would likely be why I *haven't* experienced this. The Autogeek green 6.5 CCS pads are pretty much perfect for finishing. I'll give the blue a shot but I've not had any issues with the green.
 
It has only been on a very few select paints. I have also found that on these finicky paints, that po87mc micro polish is a great med. polish to use also.



I also have had the best luck with ultrafina on a blue pad via rotary. It really amazed me on my tests and I was completly amazed by the results. I have referred it to a couple of pros here to use it and they swear by it. They can't thank me enough.
 
Some are Ferrari's, certain select Porsches, some black GM soft paints (I have had a few myself). You can sometimes spot the C&B's when a person uses FPII on an occasion and when they normally use 106. Some soft paints it works perfect.



On harder paints 106 always works perfect.
 
I'm seeing quite a few comments as to 106ff or other Menzerna polishes claiming of "filling".



Menzerna polishes do not fill, or have any caolin clay, they are pure polish used by OEM mfgs on the line. They cannot have silicone or filling clay in them at all.



The only exception is the glaze, which that does have a filling clay.



What most people see is the oils used in the polish that fill very minor micro-marring. If you use a PC with Menzerna polishes, it cannot get hot enough to break it down correctly. SUre, it looks great, but it's not fully broken down with heat.



Rotary polishing will break it down correctly with the right pad and speed. When I use a rotary and Menzerna polishes 106ff/85RD I have no filling properties at all on my black Porsche paint which is soft as all hell.



Oils will fill to a degree, but with Menzerna polishes, they can be repianted without too much effort in removal. However, due to newer water-borne paints, mfg's have become more strick as to "finishing" polishes on the line. If they cannot correct a defect, it gets removed off the line for a re-shoot.



It's the end of the line, when all interior and exterior items are installed that polishes are not as crucial in oils as the finish will be protected with a fine wax prior to shipment. In the case of Porsche, they also add cosmoline on all the lower engine parts prior to shipment.



I cannot say for the Blackfire version since it's done with a license agreement with Menzerna and may be formulated a bit differently for consumer use as opposed to mfg/professional use. It's the same for 3M polishes. Some are professional lines and some consumer. 3M makes some of the better glazes used by most body shops which do fill. Imperial and Machine both fill wetsanding/compounding marks.



It takes many passes with Menzerna to make a finish perfect, but the polish really has to be broken down within a timeframe. A PC cannot do it in the timeframe the polish was designed, so what I see with a PC is not only oil, but abrasives that start to break down, not fully and add in filling.



Deanski
 
Deanski said:
It takes many passes with Menzerna to make a finish perfect, but the polish really has to be broken down within a timeframe. A PC cannot do it in the timeframe the polish was designed, so what I see with a PC is not only oil, but abrasives that start to break down, not fully and add in filling.



Deanski
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What time frame is that for say a 2x2 area? what speed?
 
I've found that the CMA CCS pads have a more rounded edge and sometimes leave micromarring in corners vs the flat LC white pad. The LC white pad is also stiffer than other softer smaller pore pads. The Sm Arnold Speedy cut white pad has 90PPI and is extremely soft and works great with a rotary.
 
Al Buff said:
What time frame is that for say a 2x2 area? what speed?
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Depending on type of paint and if rotary or PC. Pads should be a firm polishing pad for 106FF and a softer, but not too soft for 85RD. 2x2 on average paint with a good pad that has already been loaded with polish at 1500RPM takes about 2 to 3 minutes, sometimes a bit longer. Also depends how much polish is on the finish. but normally 2 to 3 is about correct.



Softer paints polishing times are shorter and polish amounts have to be limited so the polish breaks down, otherwise you start to mark up the finish with the loaded up pad as you try to break it down. You can go with softer pads and get away with too much polish at times.



Once you find the correct amount of polish to pad, then times can start to be reduced as you get more familure with the polishes. I doesn't matter which polish you use, it's how you work it and with what tools on what type of surface and it's condition.



Light swirls or marring, you can go straight to 85RD and a polish pad. Softer paints once the defects are removed, I found that a finish pad and slower speeds burnish the finish well with 85RD. More oils let it work longer than other finishing polishes.



3M Ultrafina works by ending the polishing wet, not dry. You work it to a specific degree and that's it, no working it till dust as that would be very bad with 3M Ultrafina. That polish is married to their pads and I suggest you follow what 3M tells you. They put out a few webinars on the new polish as well.:2thumbs: Great learning tool for those wanting to see what 3M has to offer.



Blackfire is unknown to me as I only use professional/large quantity product lines. It may very well be just 106FF in smaller containers, but I doubt it. I'm sure they added some extra oils for longer time. Or they could have even lessen the oil content for PC use and quicker break down. I'm leaning on the less oil/quicker break down for PC users as this seems to be marketed in that fashion. Besides, most heavy rotary users do not use small product lines, but quart bottles along with polishes mostly geared for rotary use.



BTW, 106FF also works really well with some wool pads which I use often in place of foam cutting pads as they are more forgiving and I was trained with wool anyway and feel better using them when removing deep or lots of swirls quckly. Foam cutting pads can have a nasty habbit of burning a fender area since they do not give as much as a wool pad will. YOu have more control with wool than foam. Foam cutting works best on flat surfaces, then I can switch to my SF Arnold wools. Then, foam polish pads and finish pads.



As I tell everyone, get yourself a fender and hood from a bone yard and try to learn your polishing technique on that with specific polishes and pads BEFORE you use it on your vehicle or a customers. I'd rather have someone learn it on the junk parts and burn those before someone touches their own finish. It's a whole lot cheaper to burn up pads and polish on the junk.



I hope I answered your question and added some more wisdom when it comes to Menzerna, 3M and others as it relates to polishing correctly.



Regards,

Deanski
 
Deanski said:
Depending on type of paint and if rotary or PC. Pads should be a firm polishing pad for 106FF and a softer, but not too soft for 85RD. 2x2 on average paint with a good pad that has already been loaded with polish at 1500RPM takes about 2 to 3 minutes, sometimes a bit longer. Also depends how much polish is on the finish. but normally 2 to 3 is about correct.



Softer paints polishing times are shorter and polish amounts have to be limited so the polish breaks down, otherwise you start to mark up the finish with the loaded up pad as you try to break it down. You can go with softer pads and get away with too much polish at times.



Once you find the correct amount of polish to pad, then times can start to be reduced as you get more familure with the polishes. I doesn't matter which polish you use, it's how you work it and with what tools on what type of surface and it's condition.



Light swirls or marring, you can go straight to 85RD and a polish pad. Softer paints once the defects are removed, I found that a finish pad and slower speeds burnish the finish well with 85RD. More oils let it work longer than other finishing polishes.



3M Ultrafina works by ending the polishing wet, not dry. You work it to a specific degree and that's it, no working it till dust as that would be very bad with 3M Ultrafina. That polish is married to their pads and I suggest you follow what 3M tells you. They put out a few webinars on the new polish as well.:2thumbs: Great learning tool for those wanting to see what 3M has to offer.



Blackfire is unknown to me as I only use professional/large quantity product lines. It may very well be just 106FF in smaller containers, but I doubt it. I'm sure they added some extra oils for longer time. Or they could have even lessen the oil content for PC use and quicker break down. I'm leaning on the less oil/quicker break down for PC users as this seems to be marketed in that fashion. Besides, most heavy rotary users do not use small product lines, but quart bottles along with polishes mostly geared for rotary use.



BTW, 106FF also works really well with some wool pads which I use often in place of foam cutting pads as they are more forgiving and I was trained with wool anyway and feel better using them when removing deep or lots of swirls quckly. Foam cutting pads can have a nasty habbit of burning a fender area since they do not give as much as a wool pad will. YOu have more control with wool than foam. Foam cutting works best on flat surfaces, then I can switch to my SF Arnold wools. Then, foam polish pads and finish pads.



As I tell everyone, get yourself a fender and hood from a bone yard and try to learn your polishing technique on that with specific polishes and pads BEFORE you use it on your vehicle or a customers. I'd rather have someone learn it on the junk parts and burn those before someone touches their own finish. It's a whole lot cheaper to burn up pads and polish on the junk.



I hope I answered your question and added some more wisdom when it comes to Menzerna, 3M and others as it relates to polishing correctly.



Regards,

Deanski
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Hey Deanski



Have you tried the Ultrafina yet?
 
rydawg said:
Hey Deanski



Have you tried the Ultrafina yet?
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I have....I don't think it is that great. It REMOVES the swirls pretty well, but then you get this clear sligy liquid everywhere. It sucks to have to go and wipe down the whole car all over again after polishing. If you get any of this stuff in the cal area it seems to stain the trim. I wasn't impressed, but I have only tried it twice. On the plus side it has a huge working time and it holds up to window cleaner wipe downs.
 
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