Oxidation or Clear coat failure? (w/ Pics)

Z

ZeroDCX

New member
Hello everyone! I'm not sure if this is the right forum section to post this, so please don't scold me too much.



I recently came across a 96' Mystic Cobra over a year ago. She does a lot of sitting outside and the paint looks terrible to me. Also, recently I started noticing what seems to be some minor oxidation in the paint/clear coat on the roof. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, since I'm relatively new to car detailing).



I would like your opinions on that matter if it can be corrected via DA polisher and what steps would you recommend to go about doing so. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.



(Just for future reference I have no experience with a DA polisher but have been doing a lot of researching over the last couple months). I've just used a cheapo $20 random orbital which I know does no paint correction. Thanks.



I've ordered this kit for reference with what I'll be working with.

Porter-Cable 7424XP-LC KIT 6" Car Polisher and Lake Country Pad Kit



Pics: (Sorry for the crappy cell phone pics, I don't have a high-quality camera).

IMAG0338.jpg


IMAG0340.jpg


IMAG0341.jpg


IMAG0339.jpg
 
It's pretty hard to tell from the pics, but it does not look like clearcoat failure from what I can see. It looks more like fading/oxidation as it's more covering the entire surface than just starting to go in spots which will usually happen when clear fails. When you get your PC, you can do a small 50/50 test spot and see if it cleans it up. Try the orange pad with M105 or another compound and if it's not clearcoat failure it should clean the fading up pretty easily. Though you may need to step up to a yellow pad, depending on how hard that paint is.
 
Ron Ketcham said:
Clear is failing.

Grumpy
Click to expand...



For my education, how can you tell it's failing from the pics? Not doubting, just want to learn what you're seeing that I'm not. Usually I notice clear failing in spots first and not the whole surface. But then again, clear fails in alot of different ways...
 
That includes washing and claying beforehand, correct? Anymore tips? Btw, the surface is smooth to touch and the fading/oxidation is light and covers a wide area on the roof, but no where else on the car. I'll try to get some better pics. Thanks for the reply guys!
 
In one of the first pictures there are a couple of small "etch through" failures.

The last two photos show "cloudy" which indicates the entire clearcoat paint film has been compromised by UV exposure, if this is looked at under a 30X magnifier, one will observe that there are small bubbles, a milky look, etc not seen by the naked eye.

UV's start breaking down the clearcoat (failure) by oxidizing the resin system that holds the clearcoat polymeric structure and UV blockers together to produce the gloss factor.

It may be able to polish the top and create a short term gloss factor, however, the important chemical parts of the clear are going away. In total failure is just a matter of time.

Now the worse part, that paint-DuPont is not available in quanities, as it used "hand ground" mica and only a small amount was made.

There are newer flip base coats that will mimic this purple/dark green/gold flake base coat, but not an exact match.

The paint costs Ford over $1,000 a gallon when it was used.

If one had a collision and needed a door or such reshot, the shop had to contact the local DuPont PBE store, they contacted their DuPont rep, he bought out a pint of the base, stayed there while the base was applied, measured how many ounces where used and had the store charged for it. When he left, what was left of the pint went with him, for the next vehicle that needed repair.

Of course, the base he brought was different chemistry that cured due to air, vs the base that the Dearborn plant used in production which is done with high heat. If memory serves me, DuPont only created about 10 gallons of the refinish basecoat for repair shops.

That's why this color was only on a very few Mustangs and never produced again.

However, technolgy has made it possible to produce machine ground 5 flip micas for the newer flip paints.

Grumpy
 
Great info Ron! I thought the early Mystic Cobras had BASF paint, and the later Mystichrome ones were DuPont? My jobber has a poster with a Mystic Cobra on his wall and it says BASF on it...



Seems there are varying stories on this and differing information about what/how the base can be obtained:



Can I buy Mystichrome Paint? - Ford Mustang Forums



The TRUTH About Mystic Chrome Paint - SVTPerformance



Anyone know where to get Mystichrome Paint? - SVTPerformance



Mystichrome Cobra Paint - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
 
I may be wrong on the supplier, it could have been BASF, not DuPont. ( Do recall this was about the time that Ford plants were tossing BASF out of their paint kitchens due to huge warranty issues and costs.)

Long time ago, lot of water under the bridge and in the Jack Daniels, however the rest is pretty much on target.

I worked with John Hughes of the Ford Body/Paint Tech Center on some issues with these models.

That is where my information I posted was received from.

Also was a real problem on a couple of years earlier with the Laser Red used on Mustangs.

Those required a gold base before the red base was applied. Many delaminated like crazy and the only correct repair was to soda blast all the paint film off to the substrate and start over.
 
I have read some of the posts in the past,Charlie.

Most are "mind creations" and keep referring to the new, machine produced flip micas that are now readily available.

Never saw any of them produce an exact match to the original hand ground flakes.

You can Wiki the particles, alumina particles, and it explains how they are made, what's in them, etc.

Grumpy
 
I do know that my car is the BASF based paint. I had some pieces repainted before and it was a huge hassle getting it from them. No one else carried or could get a hold of the Mystic paint except them. Then when they also needed my VIN#, along with other proof of ownership documents... a rep came to look at what needed painting and how much paint would be needed, stood and watched as the car was painted and took the rest back with him, etc etc etc.
 
Ron Ketcham said:
I have read some of the posts in the past,Charlie.

Most are "mind creations" and keep referring to the new, machine produced flip micas that are now readily available.

Never saw any of them produce an exact match to the original hand ground flakes.

You can Wiki the particles, alumina particles, and it explains how they are made, what's in them, etc.

Grumpy
Click to expand...



Yeah, I'm sure a lot of it comes down to "if it's on the internet, it must be true (yeah, right...)"



Incredibly cool, incredibly rare stuff, and the back-story you provided is interesting to hear.
 
Objection: Water in Jack Daniels :0



In Scotland if you add water to their wiskey they'll hang you for treason ;)









Apologies for highjacking such an interesting / informative post
 
By way of redemption for the above:



The clear coat is the final original equipment manufacturers coating applied to a vehicle to protect the (base) colour coat while providing both depth and a durable, glossy appearance, originally designed to protect metallic paints, but is now applied to all colours. Any product applied on top of the clear coat needs to be transparent otherwise both the paint colour and its depth of shine will be muted.



Ultra violet (UV) radiation is known to contribute to the chemical modification (drying out the polymers and its resin binder system) of exposed paint surfaces resulting in loss of gloss, color change, chalking, flaking and eventually destruction of the paint film





UV-APaintFailure-1.jpg






​
Oxidation - is the result of some of the top layer of polymer drying out; Once the air borne contaminates and pollution compromises the paint surface they accelerate the oxidation (reduction) or paint failure process, which leads to bleaching (fading), discoloration, chalking, brittleness and cracking - all indications of UV deterioration.







ClearCoatFailureII-1.jpg







Clear coat failure- is the result of ultra violet radiation drying out both the polymer paint and its resin binder system, causing structural failure; the paint take on a dull grey cloudy appearance, then as time progresses this is accompanied by paint delamination (flaking) Once a paint surface structural integrity is compromised like this it usually means the paint requires replacement (re-painting)



It’s also worth noting that the UV absorbents migrate to the top of the clear coat, so one you remove too much clear 0.5 mil (12µ) you'll have no paint ultra violet protection other than what you apply with a LSP



Relevant Articles



http://www.autopia.org/forum/car-detailing/136818-clear-coat-uv-protection-removal.html#

 
Great post! I thought oxidation was more of a chemical reaction than simply a drying out of the clear coat. In terms of chemistry, oxidation is the reaction wherein oxygen or another element reacts with another compound and creates a new compound as in Fe + O2 = Rust.
 
Rvinyl said:
Great post! I thought oxidation was more of a chemical reaction than simply a drying out of the clear coat. In terms of chemistry, oxidation is the reaction wherein oxygen or another element reacts with another compound and creates a new compound as in Fe + O2 = Rust.
Click to expand...



Photo-oxidation of polymers



Photo-oxidation (sometimes incorrectly described as oxidation) is the degradation of a polymer surface in the presence of ozone. This is a consequence of ultra violet (UV) radiation, which instigates a chemical change that reduces the polymer's molecular weight. As a consequence of this change the material becomes more brittle, with a reduction in its tensile, impact and elongation strength. Discoloration and loss of surface smoothness accompany photo-oxidation. Infra red (heat) radiation or high surface temperature significantly increases the effect of photo-oxidation.



Corrosion is the gradual destruction of material, usually metals, by chemical reaction with its environment. In the most common use of the word, this means electro-chemical oxidation of metals in reaction with an oxidant such as oxygen. The oxidation of a metal occurs when the metal loses one or more electrons, so that the atoms of the metal go from the neutral state and become a positively charge ion. This commonly results in the formation of a metal oxide (in the case of iron that is known as rust). For example, Iron> (water +oxygen) = iron oxide







 
Here is my response, Jon, it's the way I roll.



TOGWT said:
Objection: Water in Jack Daniels :0



In Scotland if you add water to their wiskey they'll hang you for treason ;)



I am Scot/Irish decent, but I don't live in Scotland, and drink scotch, single malt, on few occassions.



I feel the same way in a manner, only it is in regards to Jack Daniels, "put anything other than water, if one wishes, and ice in the Jack and that person should be either hung or shot!



If one's wishes to put soda pop in their whiskey or boubon, get some Jim Beam, 10 High or other such booze.



NOTE: I have been a Jack Daniel's Tennessee Squire since 1980 and have the deed to my burial plot in the hollow in Lynchburg, Tenn.



Grumpy









Apologies for highjacking such an interesting / informative post
Click to expand...
 
Ron, correct me if I am wrong



Only Single Stage paint "oxidizes"



Coated paint just has too much marring, looks dull and that is what people call oxidation.
 
Clear will "oxidize" once the film is attacked. Attacked, by that I mean subject to chemical corossives, or removal of excessive clearcoat which has removed a portion of the UV blockers locking into the clearcoat.

Once clearcoat exhibits "cloudiness" or "uneven" appearance it is usually an indicator of "clearcoat" failing.

Polishing "may" appear to improve the appearance, however, a short time after the polishing/waxing/sealing, the condition will usually become apparent once again.

Any painted surface is subject to oxidation, and clearcoat is paint, but without pigment, just other components in it's chemistry, to ward of UV and some enviormental contaminates damages

Jon has a very good documented explaination of "oxidation" in one of his posts.

Grumpy
 
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