Orange Peel vs. Texture

BudgetPlan1

BudgetPlan1

Active member
Maybe it`s me and my lack of understanding but I kinda always figr`d texture and orange peel were one and the same. After Googling a bit, it seems as this is also (albeit with different terminology) a situation that occurs in a variety of metal/surface polishing and such. Interesting.

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I think there was a Autogeek discussion about gloss meters, which almost made me seek one out cuz I don`t really trust my eyes (everything looks great immediately after application) but now kinda backing outta that due to info I *think* I got from below article:


Gloss Meters: http://esotericdetail.com/education/gloss-meters-and-automotive-paint/


Perhaps more to appearance (shine-wise) than a gloss meter can contend with?


I dunno; food for thought or just overthinking?
 

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Since I did not watch the video, I will ask if orange peel and texture are two terms that are used synonymously, IE; they are two terms used interchangeably to describe the same feature or condition in a paint surface. Like the terms burnishing or jeweling to describe that ultra-fine polishing step to perfect a paint finish.
(You say tomayto, I say tomaahto)

SO, I will hi-jack this thread and ask, Is it worth trying to remove orange peel from modern paint surfaces on today`s vehicles and sacrifice the life expectancy of a clear coat on a vehicle?? I ask this because Dave Fermani "some" years ago did this to his then-company car, a NEW silver-grey Ford Fusion, to introduce a new coating from Optimum Polymer Technologies when coatings were first introduced to the general detailing consumer. The photos of the before-and-after were dramatically eye-opening, to say the least. I think he wet-sanded at that time, but then, he is a highly skilled detailer in that task. I know that with the advent of micro-fiber pads and long-throw dual-action (LT-DA) polishers when used with today`s aggressive, but safer, compounds, it is possible for even a novice detailer to remove orange peel from a vehicle paint surface, albeit with some risks of burn-through. I know this has been the subject of great debate and the pro-and cons of doing so and "replacing" the removed clear-coat with today`s modern coatings.

By the way, does anyone know what ever happened to that silver-gray Ford Fusion of Dave Fermani`s???
 
FWIW, this is the vid that sparked my pondering: https://youtu.be/VRlLLsT_yYY

What I got out of it is that orange peel and texture are *not* the same thing. Orange peel is a `longer, smoother wavelength` representation of the surface, kinda like a landscape with rolling hills. Texture is a shorter, more jagged wavelength thing within that landscape (like rocks, boulder and such) are a more jagged line superimposed over the more rolling orange peel representation wave.

They do speak a bit to sanding to remove orange peel but don`t seem to like that approach on factory paint.

It may be splitting hairs but it`s all I got at the moment...reading as opposed to doing.:mellow:

Lonnie said:
Since I did not watch the video, I will ask if orange peel and texture are two terms that are used synonymously, IE; they are two terms used interchangeably to describe the same feature or condition in a paint surface. Like the terms burnishing or jeweling to describe that ultra-fine polishing step to perfect a paint finish.
(You say tomayto, I say tomaahto)

SO, I will hi-jack this thread and ask, Is it worth trying to remove orange peel from modern paint surfaces on today`s vehicles and sacrifice the life expectancy of a clear coat on a vehicle?? I ask this because Dave Fermani "some" years ago did this to his then-company car, a NEW silver-grey Ford Fusion, to introduce a new coating from Optimum Polymer Technologies when coatings were first introduced to the general detailing consumer. The photos of the before-and-after were dramatically eye-opening, to say the least. I think he wet-sanded at that time, but then, he is a highly skilled detailer in that task. I know that with the advent of micro-fiber pads and long-throw dual-action (LT-DA) polishers when used with today`s aggressive, but safer, compounds, it is possible for even a novice detailer to remove orange peel from a vehicle paint surface, albeit with some risks of burn-through. I know this has been the subject of great debate and the pro-and cons of doing so and "replacing" the removed clear-coat with today`s modern coatings.

By the way, does anyone know what ever happened to that silver-gray Ford Fusion of Dave Fermani`s???
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As thin as manufacturers are spraying clear these days, in order to save a few pennies, I would not recommend wet sanding to remove anything except major defects. Unless you are only keeping your car for 3 years and are passing it on to some unsuspecting person it just is not worth risking CC failure. CarPro sells some denim pads that are supposed to reduce orange peal but I don’t hear many people trying this method. On a respray where more clear is involved I would do it to achieve a show car finish.
 
I googled Rhopoint IQ, which Esoteric says is better than a gloss meter. It costs $3642. I can see buying one if I’m working on high end vehicles/museum quality vehicles, but for 99.9% of detailers this would just frustrate the hell out of you. We obsess over small defects. What if you knew you could improve every car you worked on AND could quantify it? My OCD would cause me to have a nervous breakdown. On every car I work on I already know there is room for improvement, but with improvement comes time. An 8 hour detail would turn into a 7 day (or more) detail. I suppose if you are working on million dollar vehicles and have customers with unlimited funds this would be the route to go. Good topic for more discussion.
 
Eh, words have meanings. (And they aren`t always what online sources say they are.)

IMO people don`t get to redefine words like "Texture", in this case to mean a *certain type of texture*. It means what it means; you can look it up in various dictionaries and find the same definition in each.

"Texture" is a common word with a commonly accepted meaning that`s the same in numerous contexts; "Orangepeel" is a limited-context term, used primarily by people in the Detailing/Surface Coating fields, for a specific type of Texture that displays certain characteristics.

I`m gonna stay with that regardless of what some individual says the words mean to him. This is like how Meguiar`s got all, uhm...inventive...regarding words like "Eliminate", and how some Detailers want their own definition for "Jeweling".

I want Detailing to quit redefining words. Strikes me as another attempt to be, uhm...special.

OK, OK...end of rant.
 
Since I`m ranting on this thread anyhow :o

Remember that it`s not about "burning through" the clear. It`s about thinning the clear so much that the UV protection is compromised. And that doesn`t take much...a small fraction of what would result in actually going through it.

BudgetPlan1 said:
I dunno; food for thought or just overthinking?
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One guy`s serious consideration is another guy`s overthinking ;) And IMO "overthinking" things is seldom a big problem as long as the thinking is productive.

Since IMO this whole subject is just us Detailers making a big deal out of not-much ...if somebody finds the whole objectively quantitative approach to this stuff interesting, cool! Sounds like there are all sorts of ways to go about it. But you`d sure have to care a *LOT* about the appearance of some vehicle`s paint to want it taken to a level that`s not discernible without specialized equipment.

I don`t really trust my eyes...
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Absent a vision issue, I`d ask "why *NOT* (merely) trust your eyes?" I`d be surprised if you`ve ever met anybody IRL who`s more discerning about this stuff than you are.
 
Speaking of gloss meters; I remember when Dennis Weaver (70`s actor in the TV series "McCloud) was a pitchman on TV info-mertial for early 1990`s-era Blue Coral`s AutoFom Auto Surface Sealant with Fomblin A. He used a gloss meter before-and-after to "prove" how reflective this product is when applied to a vehicle`s paint. I have no idea what the number`s were to "verify" this or what the manufacturer was of the gloss meter he used.
And yes, I have this very product with the original box sitting before me (copyright says 1994, hence the era reference) as I type and just used it Monday, May 7th, on a neighbor`s snow blower before storing it for the summer and fall. Yes, it does provide a nice shine-n-glow (at least on a red & black Craftsmen snow blower!)

Oh yah, one of the best "gloss meters" out there are customers who say (politically paraphrased) "Holy Crap" when they see their dark-colored vehicle that you`ve just detailed and applied Collinite 915 wax to.
 
Lonnie- Heh heh, I liked that post :D Especially that part about "one of the best glossmeters.."

Blue Coral...back in the days of Single Stage Lacquer, the *best* looking black cars that I ever saw were Funeral Home cars with Blue Coral wax on them. People who say you "can`t layer wax" never saw a ss black hearse get prettied up with countless applications of Blue Coral. A pal was Car Cleanup at his dad`s Funeral Home, and I was simply awestruck how nice those cars were, far nicer than anything at a car show or museum, not even close.

I used a version of that Blue Coral AutoFom stuff back in the early `90s! SOMETHING like that from Blue Coral at least...remember the look and smell but not the name. It was the first "sealant" I ever tried and it did indeed last longer than my waxes including M16. Looked a bit weird to me me, pretty thick stuff going on/coming off and it was like a thick product on the paint too. Yours sounds a bit better than that, or maybe it improved with age :D
 
Yes, Blue Coral in the box !!! I tried it way back then and never got into it because it muted the clarity of paint in my experiences with it..
No doubt it held up like gangbusters, but I just saw the muting of the clarity as why I did not want to use it.
Must be from all those years in the paint shop.. :)

And after all this work and expense to get the best clarity and gloss - even - glossmeter-certified - (and who knows how one measures - accuracy - of glossmeters), after all this work and thinking about it, paying big $$$ for it, then doing it, the Client gets the car back minus - how many microns?) of clear coat and goes right out and gets the car scratched up again...
Now you know, why I totally insist on taking off as very little as possible :) It will have awesome clarity and gloss but not show car perfect...
Dan F
 
I’ve found that by just a microfiber pad and a large throw DA you can reduce texture in modern paint. The gentleman in Ohio claims this as his secret crystal treatment. As said before, with clear being as thin as it is on the newer cars, no way am I sanding them flat. The Corvette guys ask about this all the time. But those vehicles are made of materials that have texture in them. So you can’t get them flat.My Challenger had a good bit of texture in it and by compounding the factory defects out we Rudy was the texture to the eye without significant reduction in the clear. And 5 years later it’s still okay. I don’t believe that sanding or compounding the paint flat and adding a coating makes up for the clear that you’ve removed? Just my thoughts?
 
I have noticed the same thing on new ford trucks, its looks just like the first picture, i assumed it was micro pop

It must be a product of the radial spray heads they use at the factory. I have painted vehicles for 28 years

using suction guns and HVLP guns with traditional fan spray heads, and cannot recreate this effect.
 
I was wondering who Rudy was

I can`t find the specific page anymore but while Googling texture and wavelength I ran across an article about machining/polishing steel and other metals in a more `industrial` context.

While using different terminology, they were illustrating the shorter wavelength superimposed over the longer in much the same fashion. I guess it (the theory) applies in a variety of situations/settings/industries, albeit with the end result being less about appearance and more about functionality.

The gentleman from Ohio, in response to a question I posted in the comments of the video, did specifically mention either a Hellcat or Demon where texture was reduced substantially with a microfiber pad. Obviously reluctant to fully explain the Crystal process itself, it`s good to know that should a Demon or a Hellcat end up in my garage via a lottery win or sweepstakes giveaway, perhaps I can get some clarity.

I`m guessing that I`ll just have to live with my daily drivers having the shiniest texture/orange peel in the area as I rarely ever win a small giveaway, much less a Demon or a Hellcat. And I`m a bit reluctant to touch my own cars like that now that I`ve finally got them `set` as far as looks and protection goes...for now.

Still, the whole topic is new to me and, as overly geekish as it may sound, quite interesting.



Mike lambert said:
Sorry, that should say we reduced the texture
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This texture thing reminds me of machined surface micro-finish values or numbers we assigned to them on part detail drawings (AKA, blueprints) for manufacturing. Most finishes were 120 micro-inches, which could be achieved by modern cutting tools. A 250 finish was from rough machining, and was pretty easy to tell because you could see the machining marks in the surface or run your finger-nail over it and just that: rough. If it said 500 to a surface finish mark (think check mark-like symbol) ,that was the result of a cut-off saw or cast iron as removed from a pattern mold. If it said 32 or 16, those were usually achieved by grinding, like bearing mounting surfaces or surfaces that were against seals or O-rings. If it said 12 or 8, those were fine grinding or even scrapping & lapping (Google it), for extremely flat surfaces, like precision ways (dovetail slides against each other) on a milling machine.

If you ever looked at a cast or forged crank shaft from an engine after its been machined and blueprinted (detailed) and ready for assembly into an engine, you can see a wide variety of these surface finishes values on that crank shaft. Blueprinting usually involved chamfering oil holes or reaming drilled oil access holes for a finer finish, grinding or sanding off excess flash from parting lines on the casting or forging, ultra-fine (4000 grit) oil/wet emery cloth polishing of bearing surfaces, and finally dynamically balancing the whole crank on a special machine, which usually involved machining holes to add special weight "slugs" into the existing counterweights/throws for a precision balance.
 
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