moving the buffer too slowly creates swirls ?

chip douglas

New member
Would you agree, or confirm that given one use a polishing pad + polish, spinning the buffer at 1400-1500 rpm, can create or introduce marring/swirls in the finish, if the rotary is moved too slowly over the paint surface, because it then has time to mark the paint surface more ?



Thanks:o
 
i believe that if a rotary is left on a spot on a speed that high for "X" amount of time, it will create a problem. rotaries make their magic by producing heat thru friction, sometimes actually moving paint molecules around. if you move the buffer too slowly, it could cause holograms (sp?). holograms, i suppose are similar to swirl marks, only they're made by abuffer.



this is what i have gathered in all my lurking here. someone please lemme know if i got it right/ got any info mixed up. :xyxthumbs
 
Mongoose got it mostly right except for the hologram fact. I do believe they can be created by DA as well. Holograms means when you look at the paint in direct sunlight it will actually have a 3D wavy look to it.



I think thats about right.



also..using a rotary andmoving too slowly can actually cause u to melt the paint and go through to the bare metal..



I wont touch a rotary with a 10 foot pole and a u-know-what on the end of it. Im just no where experienced enough to work it. My PC 7424 DA does me just fine.!
 
How fast you move the buffer is sometimes referred to as 'arm speed'. 1500 RPM might be a little fast, but I doubt that the 'armspeed' (however slow) would induce swirling or holograms. Feel the surface after a pass. It should be barely warm, certainly not hot.



To keep the finish cooler, slow the RPMs and increase 'armspeed'. Keep the surface moist, and never 'drybuff'.



Practice, practice.



Jim
 
~One mans opinion / observations~



I’m no expert on HS rotary use but as Jimmy Buffet says,� To keep the finish cooler, slow the RPMs and increase 'armspeed'. Keep the surface moist, and never 'dry buff'.Practice, practice� :xyxthumbs



Priming a Foam Pad:

Lightly mist the foam pad with distilled water; it should be damp, not wet. Raise the trailing edge very slightly so that front 1/3rd of the foam pad is in contact with the surface (avoid using pressure or the backing plate may cut into the foam pad). Apply the product until the pad is evenly saturated with product (usually a minute or two) Product will actually be soft due to heat build-up, and then transition from a tilted pad to full pad contact with the paint surface.



�Practice, practice.� Is what I need more of?



~Hope this helps~



Knowledge unshared is experience wasted

justadumbarchitect / so I question everything/ Jon
 
The finer the pad, the finer the product the less swirls are introduced.



Swirls are micro marring and they are going to be introduced into the paint at some point during the buffing stage. The question then should be, "What can be done to lessen them?"



1) Know your product and pads - There is a term I use called "opening the paint". This is where I use a heavy to medium cutter/leveler and usually a LC orange power pad or if needed a wool pad. I know with these products/pad combos I am leaving behind marring. You can't just go to a hand wax after this step and then expect the car to be swirl freee and look good.



Logically after one "opens the paint" one then needs to "close the paint". So after our initial leveling stage I would move to a polishing pad and a mid-level polishing product. By mid-level I mean something that is designed to remove1500 grit sanding marks. My personal 2 favorites are Hi-Temps Medium Cut and a bit lighter is Menzernas Intensive Polish.



Next comes something even finer applied with a finishing pad. I prefer Hi-Temps Light Cut, Akrya's 2000 Leveler or Menzerna's Final Polish. This step may be followed by Menzerna's Final Polish and a LC blue Xtra fine finishing pad.



The swirls and fine scratches should no longer be a problem BUT if it is a dark color and you wish to see if you can get some extra depth and gloss I would recommend the Cyclo and AIO. AIO can also be applied by hand and then topped with the sealer of your choice, as long as it has no cleaners in it.



Dirty or worn pads will harbor grit and rough edges which in turn may cause swirls so change pads often. Keep them clean and don't allow your product to cake up in the foam pads.



I rinse my pads often during a buffing session, this is a good habit to get into.



2) Know your speed limits - This means that you should know just what your skill level is when using a high speed. I rarelt go over 1800 rpm's, especially on todays lighter sheet metal and thin clears. You also need to get familiar with your product in the sense of what does the product maker recommend as far as pads and rpm's? If it recommends a small drop for a 2x2 area then don't have the mindset that 4 drops will work better because this will most likely lead to caked up pads.



As already noted the magic of the rotary lies in its ability to transfer heat and friction to the paint surface and when combined with the correct pad and product will level the irregular paint surface. This is our goal BUT to do so without burning the paint. Again as already noted we want "warmth" but not so hot that you can't keep your hand on the surface.



For removing scratches you may need to use between 1500 and 1800 rpm's. To remove finer scratches/swirls you may find 1200 to 1400 rpm's works best. For final polishing you may find 1100 rpm's is just fine. Contrary to popular belief, a lower speed is not always the easiest to control and many times more swirls can be introduced from the lower rpm's. I personally find the 1200 rpm range about the best of both worlds. I can control the buffer and apply plenty of heat and friction.



A mechanical cleaner/polish (one with abrasives) may works best at a lower rpm so that the products abrasives can properly break down and do their job.



A chemical cleaner (cleans by solvents/some abrasives) may respond better to a higher rpm because of the extra heat and friction.



Lastly, don't work so hard at working the polisher. In other words let the tool do the work, allow it to work. I often see 2 critical mistakes when a person learns the rotary, which I also did as I learned, and those are 1) using a death grip on the handle, thus they "steer" the polisher with the handle and 2) they "push" the polisher across the paint.



The first mistake can be corrected with practice and always reminding your self to ease up on the grip. A tight grip on the handle will cause you to lean on one side or the other, causing you to open up the buffing pad face which leads to swirls. Many times I place my left hand on the housing where the spindle is located. On the finer polishing steps when using a lower rpm a second hand is rarely needed. Again let the tool do the work.



The second mistake can be corrected by again allowing the tool to do the work. If you have it set at 1100 rpm's don't "push" the polisher across the paint because you fear burning the paint. This leads to major swirls (and major disappointments) as your are not allowing the tool to properly break down your product. Again you should get the paint to the "warm not hot" level.



There is much more but hopefully this little bit can be of help to some.



Practice, practice.....:D



Anthony
 
Anthony Orosco said:
The finer the pad, the finer the product the less swirls are introduced.



Swirls are micro marring and they are going to be introduced into the paint at some point during the buffing stage. The question then should be, "What can be done to lessen them?"



1) Know your product and pads - There is a term I use called "opening the paint". This is where I use a heavy to medium cutter/leveler and usually a LC orange power pad or if needed a wool pad. I know with these products/pad combos I am leaving behind marring. You can't just go to a hand wax after this step and then expect the car to be swirl freee and look good.



Logically after one "opens the paint" one then needs to "close the paint". So after our initial leveling stage I would move to a polishing pad and a mid-level polishing product. By mid-level I mean something that is designed to remove1500 grit sanding marks. My personal 2 favorites are Hi-Temps Medium Cut and a bit lighter is Menzernas Intensive Polish.



Next comes something even finer applied with a finishing pad. I prefer Hi-Temps Light Cut, Akrya's 2000 Leveler or Menzerna's Final Polish. This step may be followed by Menzerna's Final Polish and a LC blue Xtra fine finishing pad.



The swirls and fine scratches should no longer be a problem BUT if it is a dark color and you wish to see if you can get some extra depth and gloss I would recommend the Cyclo and AIO. AIO can also be applied by hand and then topped with the sealer of your choice, as long as it has no cleaners in it.



Dirty or worn pads will harbor grit and rough edges which in turn may cause swirls so change pads often. Keep them clean and don't allow your product to cake up in the foam pads.



I rinse my pads often during a buffing session, this is a good habit to get into.



2) Know your speed limits - This means that you should know just what your skill level is when using a high speed. I rarelt go over 1800 rpm's, especially on todays lighter sheet metal and thin clears. You also need to get familiar with your product in the sense of what does the product maker recommend as far as pads and rpm's? If it recommends a small drop for a 2x2 area then don't have the mindset that 4 drops will work better because this will most likely lead to caked up pads.



As already noted the magic of the rotary lies in its ability to transfer heat and friction to the paint surface and when combined with the correct pad and product will level the irregular paint surface. This is our goal BUT to do so without burning the paint. Again as already noted we want "warmth" but not so hot that you can't keep your hand on the surface.



For removing scratches you may need to use between 1500 and 1800 rpm's. To remove finer scratches/swirls you may find 1200 to 1400 rpm's works best. For final polishing you may find 1100 rpm's is just fine. Contrary to popular belief, a lower speed is not always the easiest to control and many times more swirls can be introduced from the lower rpm's. I personally find the 1200 rpm range about the best of both worlds. I can control the buffer and apply plenty of heat and friction.



A mechanical cleaner/polish (one with abrasives) may works best at a lower rpm so that the products abrasives can properly break down and do their job.



A chemical cleaner (cleans by solvents/some abrasives) may respond better to a higher rpm because of the extra heat and friction.



Lastly, don't work so hard at working the polisher. In other words let the tool do the work, allow it to work. I often see 2 critical mistakes when a person learns the rotary, which I also did as I learned, and those are 1) using a death grip on the handle, thus they "steer" the polisher with the handle and 2) they "push" the polisher across the paint.



The first mistake can be corrected with practice and always reminding your self to ease up on the grip. A tight grip on the handle will cause you to lean on one side or the other, causing you to open up the buffing pad face which leads to swirls. Many times I place my left hand on the housing where the spindle is located. On the finer polishing steps when using a lower rpm a second hand is rarely needed. Again let the tool do the work.



The second mistake can be corrected by again allowing the tool to do the work. If you have it set at 1100 rpm's don't "push" the polisher across the paint because you fear burning the paint. This leads to major swirls (and major disappointments) as your are not allowing the tool to properly break down your product. Again you should get the paint to the "warm not hot" level.



There is much more but hopefully this little bit can be of help to some.



Practice, practice.....:D



Anthony



If thats not an answer then i dont know what is :xyxthumbs
 
Most swirls are created by not initially "conditioning" the pad correctly. For example, if you follow the directions and put down a quarter sized dab of polish and proceed to buff, the majority of the pad is dry and will create more heat and friction without having the polish to correct it.



I apply the polish to an applicator then to the surface. When I buff the pad has been coated evenly with product and I can control how much film is on the surface. This also controls slinging.



I spritz water on the surfrace or dampen the applicator to help control the work time depending on the product.
 
I don't use a rotary and probably never will but these post raised so questions.



1 - How does the rotary move paint molecules around?

2 - It sounds like after using the rotary, the paint would be cooler that if it was in direct sunlight. That doesn't seem like a lot of heat. How is that little heat about to contribute to the rotary's effectiveness? Modern paints are cured at higher temps.

3 - DA can produce holograms? Please tell me no! From what I've read DA's are 99% fool proof. That's you can't actually hurt your paint without doing something very stupid. Like holding it over an edge for an extended period of time.



Curious minds must know!
 
What Anthony said :xyxthumbs :xyxthumbs Except that I, not being *NEARLY* as skilled with the rotary as he is (LOL! What an understatement!!! :o ), use a mildly abrasive polish with the Cyclo (instead of AIO) as a follow up.



IMO if you're getting holograms that the Cyclo can't get out, then you're doing something wrong, something major enough that you oughta be able to correct it. Maybe the thing to correct is the pad/product combo; it's not like you have to "master" a given combo with all the options out there.



And I have never, in over twenty years with a DA/PC/Cyclo induced any holograms. Not once. Micromarring yes, holograms no.



Anthony- I sometimes find that the Cyclo seems to "flash" the AIO a bit too fast, leading to tougher-than-usual removal. Any suggestions?
 
Thank you Anthony for the information and your insights…/ :xyxthumbs



I've just been looking at your gallery on top of the line...I'm lost for apply descriptive word …



Wow! will have to suffice :bow
 
Accumulator said:
And I have never, in over twenty years with a DA/PC/Cyclo induced any holograms. Not once. Micromarring yes, holograms no.
What caused the micromarring - torn pad, dirty pad, bad product selection, or ?
 
PAW said:
What caused the micromarring - torn pad, dirty pad, bad product selection, or ?



that is caused when after polishing w/ a polish to remove marring you end up getting micro marring which are little almost less noticeable marring's (if i worded that rignt :rolleyes: ) any how you go down to the next polish below i.e final polish or poorboys ssr1 or 2.

so in other words if i use a rotory w/IP to remove marring & it does then it will more than likely leave micro marring, which i will then use the FP to remove that usually after that you should have a good finish which is swirl free. got it good :xyxthumbs
 
6']['9 said:
that is caused when after polishing w/ a polish to remove marring you end up getting micro marring which are little almost less noticeable marring's (if i worded that rignt :rolleyes: ) any how you go down to the next polish below i.e final polish or poorboys ssr1 or 2.

so in other words if i use a rotory w/IP to remove marring & it does then it will more than likely leave micro marring, which i will then use the FP to remove that usually after that you should have a good finish which is swirl free. got it good :xyxthumbs
I understand that. :) Accumulator seemed to be implying that the micromarring came for the act of USING the PC.
 
PAW said:
Accumulator seemed to be implying that the micromarring came for the act of USING the PC.

It can come from a pc it depends on what you using as far as pad/product combinations. Both rotory & PC can cause micro marring.
 
PAW said:
I don't use a rotary and probably never will but these post raised so questions.



1 - How does the rotary move paint molecules around?

2 - It sounds like after using the rotary, the paint would be cooler that if it was in direct sunlight. That doesn't seem like a lot of heat. How is that little heat about to contribute to the rotary's effectiveness? Modern paints are cured at higher temps.

3 - DA can produce holograms? Please tell me no! From what I've read DA's are 99% fool proof. That's you can't actually hurt your paint without doing something very stupid. Like holding it over an edge for an extended period of time.



Curious minds must know!



1) What I believe he means by this is that the rotary can literally shift paint.



2) The sun heats up the paint by absorbing an outside heat source. The rotary heats up the paint with direct friction via contact. The sun is an indirect heat source. Much like drilling a screw through a piece of wood, or better removing it. Remove it by hand with a screwdriver and there is little to no heat transferred to the screw. Now remove it with a cordless drill and the increased speed causes friction which in turn causes a build up of heat, transferred to the screw. I think:nixweiss



3) DA's will not produce 3D holograms for they do not spin fast enough. If one uses an abrasive product/pad combo then one can leave scratches behind. Some call these "halo scratches" or "marring".





Accumulator,



Try adding a little more AIO to the pads over those areas and then wiping away. Personally I prefer AIO by hand BUT in a rush the Cyclo helps!



Jay, TOWGT, and Chip,



Thanks for the kind words:D



Anthony
 
Anthony- LOL sometimes it's like you read my mind, you must have a good crystal ball down there ;) Adding more AIO did help things (I didn't like rubbing harder to remove it so I tried various things) but I still felt I was doing something wrong and I'm sorta obsessive about using no more product than feel I oughta need to :o I've just resorted to using a PC for AIO, at least they get a little exercise that way.



BTW, I'm gonna be using your "foam on one head MF bonnet on the other" trick when I do the Volvo this afternoon. Just a quick clean-up for its new owner before she drives it away :D



Oh, and everyone note that Anthony and I use "marring" in slightly different ways, I use it as a catch-all term for below-surface defects (scratches, swirls, cobwebs, holograms, etching, etc. etc.). Don't intend to be confusing but sometimes I am anyhow :o



Paw- It came from using a product that the PC couldn't break down properly. Using rotary-only products (Meg's #2 and PI-III Extra Cut come to mind) by PC will *really* do it. Also some products just aren't designed to leave a ready-to-wax finish when used by PC (#83, 3M 05933/39002, 1Z Ultra) so they'll do it too.



And any contamination or running the pad "too dry" will do it too, but that's a real "mistake" whereas the other is just the nature of the product/tool combo.



And yeah, the way a rotary can "shift paint" (*in the right hands*) is really something. Almost like it melts away the defects. If I hadn't seen seen it happen I wouldn't have believed it. And no, I can't do it, not about to try either (at least until I have a scrap panel- planned to try it on the Volvo but now that's not gonna happen).
 
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