Michelin Uptis

[Setec Astronomy]

It looks like Michelin is finally going to bring their airless tire to market (which I`ve been reading about for what seems like 20 years):

MICHELIN Uptis :: Michelin North America, Inc.

I guess no more tire dressing discussions, huh?

 

[briarpatch]

crazy looking...been hearing about these things forever as well...was wondering if I`d ever see it.....can not imagine what they might cost...and what kind of fancy mounting machine tire shops will have to buy

 

[Lonnie]

So Michelin has chosen the trade name UPTIS as "Unique Puncture-proof TIre System?
Here`s some model names that were rejected
1) Wagon Wheel
2) Breathless
3) Pnuemo Free
4) Tire Pressure for Dummies (AKA, TP4D)
5) Non-Flat and Running Tire (AKA. Non-FART)
6) Continuously Running Always Punctureless (AKA, CRAP)
7) Green Eco Recycled Rubber (AKA, GERR; To appeal to environmentalist and tree huggers, the acronym is for everyone else who "dislikes" this tire)

I`ll adopt and accept this technology when I see it on Formula 1 cars, although I CAN see this being used in Formula-E racing just because of its adoption of cutting edge technologies.

Here`s the "engineering" problem I see . This tire will weight two to three times the weight or "mass" of a current pneumatic tire. This will require a lighter weight rim to compensate for this extra weight, such as magnesium-titanium-aluminum alloy or maybe a carbon fiber composite, all expensive propositions to achieve this "neutral" running weight for this new tire technology. Solve one problem and create another. Engineering and technology is always about compromise and costs.

That said, recycling worn-out or punctured conventional pneumatic tires for manufacturing this particular airless tire and the impact on the environmental waste such pneumatic tires are currently generating is worth considering.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I`m not sure the tire shops will even be involved, or if it is different from the "Tweel". I got the impression it was one-piece. Here`s some Tweels: Search results for: 'tweel' | Tires4That by Gallagher Tire

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You`re faster than I am, Lonnie, in more ways than one. Are you sure the weight is going to be more? I mean it`s got no sidewalls...if you cut up the sidewalls into little squares, and used them for those "spokes"...I don`t see it as being 2 to 3 times more weight...maybe a little more. As far as the whole cost tradeoff...the fact that the Bolt may be the launch platform for this system would kind of indicate they have the cost part figured out, since the Bolt is a cheapo EV. FWIW about 3 years ago I was on the lot at a Chevy dealer and they had one so I asked the salesman "you guys sell many of these?" and his answer "one".

 

[Oneheadlite]

I thought with these and/or the tweels the open sidewall was just for displaying the concept, but in practice they`d put some sort of cap on them so it`d look like a normal tire.

I can`t imagine what a nightmare they`d be in the winter otherwise - if I spend any quality time sideways in the snow, I end up with enough snow packed into my wheels I need to knock it out the next morning or risk my dental work once I get on the highway...

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I thought with these and/or the tweels the open sidewall was just for displaying the concept, but in practice they`d put some sort of cap on them so it`d look like a normal tire.

I can`t imagine what a nightmare they`d be in the winter otherwise - if I spend any quality time sideways in the snow, I end up with enough snow packed into my wheels I need to knock it out the next morning or risk my dental work once I get on the highway...

I don`t know, the "cap" has to flex, seems to me this already is going to have enough rolling-resistance problems. I would imagine the flex would break out the snow pretty fast, as opposed to a wheel.

And I wish I was still young enough to characterize "time sideways in the snow" as "quality", rather than an undesired outcome.

 

[Desertnate]

And I wish I was still young enough to characterize "time sideways in the snow" as "quality", rather than an undesired outcome.

You don`t see an empty parking lot covered in snow at night and quickly divert course to knock out a few donuts? I`m pushing 50 (can`t believe I had to admit that...) and I still do...if/when we get snow.

In all seriousness, the debris question is a valid one. Snow, ice, even small rocks could get caught in those sidewall.

I too question how something like that would mount to a wheel.

To Lonnie`s statement about seeing them in racing, my big question is how do these tires handle lateral loads? Typically that is a function of the belts as they wrap from the bead, down the sidewall, and around the tire surface and around the other side. On these wheels there is no structure (from what I can see) that would handle/distribute those stresses/loads. They would be fine in a straight line, but not sure what happens to them when you turn the steering wheel at any speeds above what you`d encounter in your driveway or parking lot.

 

[dgage]

FWIW about 3 years ago I was on the lot at a Chevy dealer and they had one so I asked the salesman "you guys sell many of these?" and his answer "one".

A friend had a Volt and I thought it was a really nice car and could have seen a small chance of me getting one for the family. I see no chance of me getting a Bolt. Probably was a hard sale anyway but I think going the economy route wasn’t the best way to get adoption. However, I haven’t been near a Bolt so maybe it’s a great car.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

You don`t see an empty parking lot covered in snow at night...

I guess I`ve reached the point where the risks of that outweigh any thrill, and I`ve gone sideways enough times in my life (including on the road a month ago, no, I didn`t hit anything, just some fishtailing), that I don`t need to do it on purpose.

To Lonnie`s statement about seeing them in racing, my big question is how do these tires handle lateral loads?

I have to believe if they are a couple of years away from having this on a production car, that isn`t an issue. Of course it could be vaporware, etc. After all, I think Elon Musk was supposed to be living on Mars by now. I think he mostly wants to set up a bitcoin server there.

A friend had a Volt and I thought it was a really nice car and could have seen a small chance of me getting one for the family. I see no chance of me getting a Bolt. Probably was a hard sale anyway but I think going the economy route wasn’t the best way to get adoption. However, I haven’t been near a Bolt so maybe it’s a great car.

Someone on this forum suggested years ago that electric cars weren`t going to get any wide acceptance until you could charge 275 miles of range in 5 minutes (like filling up your gas tank). We may be getting to that point, but even EV`s that are capable of fast charging that approaches those numbers require a Level 3 charger to do it, which means use of a non-residential charging station.

The Bolt seems like it has a very limited target market for someone that doesn`t drive that far (or has another vehicle for that), and has a Level 2 charger at home or access to one at work. I can see it being a good commuter car for someone that drives less than 50 miles each way (although I think they have increased the range somewhat since 3 years ago). As the OP found, a hybrid can be a good intermediate step that increases mileage quite a bit without much effect on cost or performance.

As a side note, I heard from a friend about someone who got a Toyota minivan, and it was a hybrid, so I looked it up...and they are all hybrids, only way you can get it (at least at the time I checked). I also saw that Hyundai, who frequently has an up-model that has more horsepower...for the new Tucson, the only way to get the higher horsepower version is with the hybrid, because they use the same engine (I think) and add in the hybrid motor. I`m just saying these are ways the car companies are building acceptance of these kinds of vehicles, because the technology has reached the point where I think most casual drivers wouldn`t realize they are driving a hybrid if you didn`t tell them.

EDIT: I apparently got mixed up between two threads that kind of converged on the same topic, the latter part of my comments above could/should have been in this thread: His & hers 2022 Ford Escape SEL Hybrid SWD..3

 

[Lonnie]

Someone on this forum suggested years ago that electric cars weren`t going to get any wide acceptance until you could charge 275 miles of range in 5 minutes (like filling up your gas tank). We may be getting to that point, but even EV`s that are capable of fast charging that approaches those numbers require a Level 3 charger to do it, which means use of a non-residential charging station.....

Aren`t the development and building of electric charging stations along the USA Interstate system part of the recently passed federal Infrastructure Bill??
This has long been the "chick-and-the-egg" controversy about car companies developing and building electric vehicle: not enough charging stations to invest the capital (money) making them, and, not enough electric cars to invest in numerous charging stations with a wide-scale electrical infrastructure to support them.
THAT is what this bill is suppose to address. I say "suppose", because electricity and its sale is a publicly-controlled monopoly. I cannot buy my electricity from a number of different sources in the state of Wisconsin, like I can gasoline or bottle gas (Compressed Natural Gas). So now the question becomes what if a municipality wants to generate their own electricity by using solar or wind turbines to sell in these EV charging stations. Are they even "legal" entities to do so? If I have generated electricity by solar or wind turbines on my property for my own use, any excess electricity HAS to "sold" back to the electrical company as a credit on my utilities bill to whatever state utilities board designated (AKA government-controlled monopoly) utility company supplies my electricity and natural gas. Are municipalities going to be allowed to compete with electrical-and-gas utilities for not only electrical generation and distribution, but make money (AKA profit) at these municipal built and owned (albeit with federal funds from this bill) charging stations, since they are technically not a "business" but a public government entity?? OR are the electrical charging stations under the domain of government-controlled power utilities ONLY? Or will they be sold to private-sector gasoline and/or energy/alternate-fuel companies to recoup the cost back to federal government???
LOTS of legal questions to be answered about electric vehicle charging station systems AND the implications for electrical generation and distribution to the public. Solve one problem, create two more; that`s our federal government getting involved in free market capitalism.

I have no idea what it cost to recharge a Electric Vehicle. I do know that in the state of Wisconsin a yearly charge of $75 is added to the cost of licensing registration for EVs to make up the difference in lost state gasoline road tax revenue by such vehicles. So much for "reduced energy operational costs". Tesla owners are very upset about this because they contend they pay more in "taxes" than a typical gasoline-powered vehicle driven the same amount of miles in a year! Do the math: Wisconsin gas tax is 30.9 cents per gallon. Divided into $75 means someone would need to buy 242.72 gallons to equal that $75 amount. If an "average" gasoline-powered car got 30 miles per gallon combined city and highway driving, they would need to travel 7,282 miles per year to use that much gas. I think NOT, Tesla owner. Most car owners in Wisconsin drive between 8,000 -12,000 miles per year AND because many drive trucks or SUVs out of necessity, they do not come close to get 30 MPG combined city/highway!! (Always the pragmatist, Captain Obvious. I`d like to think realist.. Just sayin`....)
Hey, the state gets its road maintenance money one way or another!!

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think you`re making this more complicated than it is, Lonnie (or more complicated than the point I was making). The gas station I go to most frequently has set up a bank of EV chargers at the far end of the complex (where the vacuums/air pumps were...although they still have them fenced off), so there is certainly going to be competition in electric charging, and I guess on toll roads it will be controlled the same way gas pricing is (here in NJ on the Parkway/Turnpike the captive gas stations have regulations about how frequently they can change the price, etc.)

I guess I was venting that the fast-charging claims for some of these newer EV`s feel like false advertising, if only because in my head I thought I would be able to get those charge rates in my garage. On the other hand, I can`t gas up my car in my garage, either. One of the attractive things about an EV (to me, anyway) was the thought of never having to go to a gas station again, which may still be true, without the fast charging, just would have to leave it overnight to charge.

 

[dgage]

I think you`re making this more complicated than it is, Lonnie (or more complicated than the point I was making). The gas station I go to most frequently has set up a bank of EV chargers at the far end of the complex (where the vacuums/air pumps were...although they still have them fenced off), so there is certainly going to be competition in electric charging, and I guess on toll roads it will be controlled the same way gas pricing is (here in NJ on the Parkway/Turnpike the captive gas stations have regulations about how frequently they can change the price, etc.)

I guess I was venting that the fast-charging claims for some of these newer EV`s feel like false advertising, if only because in my head I thought I would be able to get those charge rates in my garage. On the other hand, I can`t gas up my car in my garage, either. One of the attractive things about an EV (to me, anyway) was the thought of never having to go to a gas station again, which may still be true, without the fast charging, just would have to leave it overnight to charge.

Like any change, there will need to be an adjustment.

I have driven a few hybrids and of those, the 2018+ Honda Accord Hybrid is just a fantastic car. I was trying to notice when the car switched between engine, motor, and engine+motor but I couldn’t really discern definitively. Previously hybrids were somewhat a trade off but the latest generation hybrids really are great vehicles that happen to get great gas mileage. No real trade offs with hybrids, which mens they are available to the general public that is able to afford a new car today, which definitely isn’t everyone.

Electric cars take more adjustment. I’ve driven a few Tesla Model 3s and ridden in a Model S and overall they are great vehicles once past the initial quality issues inherent in many Teslas. Let’s ignore Teslas quirks such as the center screen and lack of controls. But regarding the vehicle it drives nicely and is a good daily driver. If you have the ability to plug-in overnight, your electric car now becomes more like your phone where you plug it in every night and it is ready in the morning. Super fast charging not necessarily needed for that use case. And I’ve talked to and read about many owners who like to road-trip with their Teslas and they plan more stops to relax and take breaks so the overall trip takes longer but some have said they’re more refreshed when they arrive. Some of those had the (potentially) inaccurate name of Autopilot so they were able to let the Tesla handle some of the driving duties on the interstate so didn’t have to pay quite as close attention, especially with slow, speed up, slow traffic.

But electric cars aren’t for those that don’t have the ability to plug in and they won’t beat a gas vehicle to a long distance destination for many years. But times are a changing and we’re getting another option energy option. And some companies don’t see electric cars as the future, they still see hydrogen vehicles as the best long-term solution so maybe electric vehicles will just be a stop-gap solution, though we;re likely 20+ years from that transition happening in earnest.

 

[wannafbody]

I think the larger issue is the need for millions of charging stations. EV are great for short trips or city driving.

 

[Setec Astronomy]

I think the larger issue is the need for millions of charging stations. EV are great for short trips or city driving.

But, there certainly is the opportunity for millions of Level 2 charging stations, in people`s garages. And I think (at least around where I live), people underestimate the number of charging stations there currently are. I know I saw a row of 10 or 15 some years ago in a rest stop on the NY Thruway (upstate), again some years ago in a local hotel parking garage, they had 2 or 3, and my above mention of my usual gas station has 4 plugs (two that look like Tesla, and 2 standard), which is a fair number considering they only have 8 gas hoses. My friends tell me the new Wawa (regional 7-11 kind of place) has a row of electric chargers, also.

 

[Rsurfer]

But, there certainly is the opportunity for millions of Level 2 charging stations, in people`s garages. And I think (at least around where I live), people underestimate the number of charging stations there currently are. I know I saw a row of 10 or 15 some years ago in a rest stop on the NY Thruway (upstate), again some years ago in a local hotel parking garage, they had 2 or 3, and my above mention of my usual gas station has 4 plugs (two that look like Tesla, and 2 standard), which is a fair number considering they only have 8 gas hoses. My friends tell me the new Wawa (regional 7-11 kind of place) has a row of electric chargers, also.

The homeless will somehow manage to salvage something out of the chargers.

 

[Lonnie]

The point where is all this electricity for EV`s going to come from? Solar? Not up north in the winter.
Wind turbines? We have lawsuits in Wisconsin as to their causing personal heath issues to those who live close to "fields" of them from low-level vibration and frequency humming from the electric generators and turbine blades moving through the air. To me it`s kinda like the tobacco industry and its insistence for many years in the 40`s, 50`s and early 60`s that smoking did not lead to chronic heath issues. We know better today.

EV`s are here to stay, as are hybrids. AND with the current fossil fuel environmental issues and crude oil market prices, electricity is a viable alternative energy source. How much of the electricity can be generated AND distributed to meet that vehicle demand is the question and factor to that "viability" and it will definitively be price-dependent within a supply-and-demand economy.

By the way, wait until you get your utilities bill in the coming months. There are four major energy types; 1) Crude oil; 2) Natural gas; 3) Electricity; 4) Coal (and in some limited respects Uranium). When one type of energy increases in price, so do the others. Thery`re all interdependent and market related.

BACK to the airless tire.
Here`s the question: Would you buy it and drive on it on your vehicle IF it were available for your personal vehicle?
Like I say, there are A LOT of great questions/concerns being raised here about it.
Personally, I have a wait-and-see attitude on this new tire technology. The concept sound greats.
That`s what I thought about Lake County Power Tools User-Definable Orbital Stroke (UDOS) buffing machine. Great concept! Took a long time to develop and finally bring to market. When it did, its initial cost and weight seemed to negate all the benefits it was suppose to have. Poor execution or too high a price? Again, would YOU buy such a buffing machine for your correcting and polishing detailing?

 

[dgage]

The point where is all this electricity for EV`s going to come from? Solar? Not up north in the winter.
Wind turbines? We have lawsuits in Wisconsin as to their causing personal heath issues to those who live close to "fields" of them from low-level vibration and frequency humming from the electric generators and turbine blades moving through the air. To me it`s kinda like the tobacco industry and its insistence for many years in the 40`s, 50`s and early 60`s that smoking did not lead to chronic heath issues. We know better today.

Energy independence is one of the major challenges to humanity. And we won’t be able to shift too quickly. But one thing I know from industry is efficiencies are gained in bulk. Will we be more efficient improving our energy grid and powering more electric cars or continuing with more distributed gasoline powered cars. As always happens when gas gets expensive, there will be a shift to more efficient cars; gas, hybrids, and electric, but that will take time too. One thing I know is humans are capable of making the necessary shifts though I’m not sure our politics of today will have the willpower to make the shift until it becomes an emergency.

BACK to the airless tire.
Here`s the question: Would you buy it and drive on it on your vehicle IF it were available for your personal vehicle?
Like I say, there are A LOT of great questions/concerns being raised here about it.
Personally, I have a wait-and-see attitude on this new tire technology. The concept sound greats.
That`s what I thought about Lake County Power Tools User-Definable Orbital Stroke (UDOS) buffing machine. Great concept! Took a long time to develop and finally bring to market. When it did, its initial cost and weight seemed to negate all the benefits it was suppose to have. Poor execution or too high a price? Again, would YOU buy such a buffing machine for your correcting and polishing detailing?

Ultimately, there has to be an advantage with new technology. You’ll get some early adoption as there are always some of those but the benefits will have to significantly outweigh the negatives before there is widespread adoption. Cost will always be more expensive with new technology so there would have to be some benefits over regular tires without any real negatives. I doubt the first version will be a commercial success, unfortunately. I just hope it doesn’t set back the concept if it might have a legitimate future.