Glazes incompatible with polymer sealants?

Lucifer13

New member
I found this article on another website:

http://www.fordvschevy.com/tech/waxes.php#iv1



It says:

“If you are using, or want to use a polymer, stay away from glazes - their presence on the car will only interfere with a polymer bonding properly.�



Is this true?



I was planning on using 3M Imperial Hand Glaze with Sonax Liquid Hard Wax. Does anyone know if they are compatible?



I don’t know if Sonax Liquid Hard Wax is a polymer or not. I’m pretty sure there is no carnuba in it though.
 
Hello Daddycool,



I have used both Meguirs #3 and 9 with BlackFire Sealant and have not noticed any ill effects. Now some may not consider these "glazes" but more along the lines of polishes. I have not yet used any sealants with #7, 5 or Omega glaze so I cannot comment on that.



I have not yet used the Sonax Hard Wax but if I were going by the name alone I would say itis a carnuba based wax and not a ploymer but again I am only guessing.



Anthony
 
The problem with glazes and sealants is that glazes are comprised mostly of oils and fillers, both of which interfere with the bonding ability of a sealant. These ingredients essentially coat the painted surface which prevent any chemical bonding to occur.
 
Bret,

My understanding is that if he has moderate to serious swirl marks:



Planning on Sealant: he'd go DACP, #9, #7, then dawn (to get rid of the oils). Then he could move to his sealant of choice.



Planning on carnauba finish: he'd go DACP, #9, #7, then his carnauba of choice.



Yea?



The DAWN will remove the oils he'd need to remove to go to a sealant, but if he's going carnauba, the oil need not be dawn'd off.



Yea?
 
jcattarulla said:
Bret,

My understanding is that if he has moderate to serious swirl marks:



Planning on Sealant: he'd go DACP, #9, #7, then dawn (to get rid of the oils). Then he could move to his sealant of choice.



Planning on carnauba finish: he'd go DACP, #9, #7, then his carnauba of choice.



Yea?



The DAWN will remove the oils he'd need to remove to go to a sealant, but if he's going carnauba, the oil need not be dawn'd off.



Yea?



On the sealent option there is no point in using the 7.
 
This topic is being discussed more and more latley. There are people on both sides of the fence.



I have tried IHG under Zaino with no apparent bonding issues.



A month ago I splt my wifes car in half, 1/2 SMR, IHG, Z2 ZFX



The other half no IHG.



So far the beading is for all intents and purposes is equal.



The theme seems to be that one should do a dawn wash, or Z6 QD prior to the polymer.



If you are waxing there is no issue.



I have 3 coats of Z2, with a topper of PS. The shine and depth are wonderful, but I have caused micro marring or slight swirls assumably in the app process.



What I am trying now is applying IHG on top to fill some of those.

There seems to be a concensus that IHG would strip wax and polymers. I'm not sure, but if that is so then it's a very fast way to start over from scratch.



Simply IHG, strip the poly, fill the marrs, and Z over top.



I personall am not convinced it will strip Z, but hey I'm but a rookie......



:bow
 
Many months ago, long before I discovered Roadfly or any other detailing forum, I did some experimenting with various carnaubas and one polymer in an effort to choose the best wax for my new car. I used all of the waxes that I had in my garage plus everything I could beg or borrow. One of the waxes that was loaned to me was a bottle of Z-1 and Z-2. At that time I’d never heard of Zaino and didn’t know polymer from carnauba from Shinola!



As my playing on an old hood progressed I saw that Meguiar’s, Mothers, and Zaino were leading the pack and started trying them on test areas of my new Jet Black car. Since I didn’t know anything more about Zaino than what was on the bottles, I applied the Zaino right over the existing layer of carnauba. When Mothers dropped out of the competition it got covered with Zaino. By the time I decided that Zaino was probably going to be the winner there were 4 or 5 coats of Z-1/Z-2 on top of the original wax and 2 or 3 coats on top of the Mothers wax. At this point I finally noticed the URL on the Zaino bottles, visited the Zaino site, and ended up phoning Mr. Z with some questions. During our conversation he said that the carnauba should be stripped before applying Zaino and asked me how many coats of Zaino I had covering the carnauba. When I told him 4 or 5, he said to just let it go and continue with the Zaino. I didn’t know enough then to ask about bonding, much less to ask about topping a glaze with Zaino. Since Mr. Z also said that Zaino gave a much harder surface than carnauba, I now did a Dawn wash on the front of the car and 2 coats of Zaino. Sure enough, the bugs wiped right off, and Zaino was the clear winner!



I ordered Z-1, Z-2, Z-5, and Z-6 … Dawned and clayed the whole car and started adding layers of Z-1 and Z-5. I soon realized that each layer of Zaino improved the already great shine, and when I had maybe 6 or 8 layers on the entire car a cat jumped onto my hood and left some 9 or 10 inch scratches as it slid off. Being afraid to use an abrasive polish I attacked these scratches with 3M IHG. Since I’m a “house husbandâ€� I have a very flexible schedule, so my procedure was to go down to the garage when I had a few free minutes and put a few layers of IHG on the scratches. I soon found out that the sun would quickly dissipate the IHG, so I started topping it with Z-1 and Z-5 after each session on the scratches. Little by little the scratches disappeared, and after 30 or 40 sessions (maybe more) the scratches were gone.



Since then I’ve done a lot of experimenting with topping IHG and P21S GEPC with Zaino when dealing with micro-marring and self-induced scratches. What works for me is to use the glaze, wipe down with Z-6 or a Z-7 solution, then top with Z-2/5 plus either Z-1 or ZFX.



Many of the far more experienced and knowledgeable detailers on another board and Mr. Z himself have told me that the oils in IHG or GEPC interfere with the Zaino bonding process. But, it works for me so I continue to use it this way.



YMMV!
 
I have used #7 followed by #20 for years without a single bonding problem. I have always really liked the combination as it adds depth to dark paints, and yet still has the excellent durability of the polymer. Perhaps because #20 has a mild cleaner in it, this avoids the bonding problems. I can not speak on other brands, as this is the only polymer I use.



Cheers

Tim
 
DaddyCool,



The Sonax Hard Wax is the re-branded by Porsche as their liquid hard wax. I have used IHG and other glazes under the Porsche hard wax with very good results.



Likewise, just yesterday I was testing several professional grade glazes to see what I liked best. I topped one fender with BF, another with Z5 and the hood with KSG to see what I liked the best. I will be washing the car several times today to test durability/compatibility after the washing.



I think its all going to depend on the make up of the glaze.



db
 
Wouldnt Dawning, after glazing, remove the oils intended to fill ? Therefore, why glaze ?
 
Patrick said:
Wouldnt Dawning, after glazing, remove the oils intended to fill ? Therefore, why glaze ?



It might. Dawn is very strong, which is why I simply wipe with Z6. Z7 would also be mild enough to leave the oils and fillers.
 
DavidB,



Please post your glaze findings. In the interest of supporting the economy I'm ever searching for new products to try.
 
DavidB said:
The Sonax Hard Wax is the re-branded by Porsche as their liquid hard wax. I have used IHG and other glazes under the Porsche hard wax with very good results.


Thanks DavidB!

That was just what I wanted to hear.

I had no idea that Sonax was re-branded by Porsche.



BTW - do you know if there is any relation between Sonax and Klasse? They have similar products and are both made in Germany, so I thought they might be the same product with different brand names.
 
DaddyCool said:
Thanks DavidB!

That was just what I wanted to hear.

I had no idea that Sonax was re-branded by Porsche.



BTW - do you know if there is any relation between Sonax and Klasse? They have similar products and are both made in Germany, so I thought they might be the same product with different brand names.



There's no relation between Sonax and Klasse. The company that makes Klasse is Car-lack founded by Helmut Reckling in 1958. A German (I fogot his name) who imigrated to the US started importing the Car-lack product to the US and re-branded it Klasse. He later sold the import rights to Mr. Bob Faragosso. Bob does not own the Klasse name. How's that for an odd background?



Likewise, the P21S product line is mfg'd in Germany under a different name and imported to the US as P21S by BIS Smartparts. This is a very common practice.



Sonax is mfg's in Germany and imported to the US by Kenntnis, Inc. Sonax is sold world-wide under the Sonax label and a few private label agreements with German car mfgs.



db
 
DavidB said:
There's no relation between Sonax and Klasse. The company that makes Klasse is Car-lack founded by Helmut Reckling in 1958. A German (I fogot his name) who imigrated to the US started importing the Car-lack product to the US and re-branded it Klasse. He later sold the import rights to Mr. Bob Faragosso. Bob does not own the Klasse name. How's that for an odd background?





db



So is it true then that the same acrylic that is in Klasse is in the Sonax QD?
 
In my experience...



Im currently using Soft99 FussoCoat (a Japanese polymer). When I first tried it, the car was prepped simply by using a cleaner wax (Meg #66), then rewashed, then topped off with 2 coats of Fusso.



That lasted a good 2 months or so before beading/sheeting halted and surface water starts to cling onto the paint.



I stripped it off and tried going the 50/50 test. Half of the trunk is treated with IHG prior to sealing, the other half wasn't prepped.



The side with IHG "worn out" 2 weeks earlier than the other half. Same result when I top off my sealant with #26... Maybe it's just my sealant, but just the same, it affected durability for me.



Same thing happened when I used a cheap Simoniz sealant.



I can't speak for Zaino of BF... Haven't tried
 
I’ve been dealing with micro-marring (and some larger marring like a cat scratch) for quite a long time by filling with 3M IHG and topping with Zaino. When I started doing that I would spritz the IHG area with a car wash/water solution, wipe it down, then spritz and wipe again using plain water. Worked fine - removes all the IHG oils and very little of the IHG if you don’t scrub the area. Later started using just QD to make it a one step procedure - also works fine.



During the past couple of weeks I’ve been experimenting with layering different polishes, glazes, and Klasse, Blackfire2, Zaino, and Souverän. My testing areas were on my roadster with 30+ base coats of Zaino and another 27 y.o. car with very neglected paint. All combinations layered well with a couple of caveats; polymers won’t bond to surfaces that are oily or have solvent on them, so glazes must be washed with auto shampoo and carnauba must be washed with liquid dish detergent.



As a side note I also found out a couple of things that surprised me. All three polymers can be easily topped with Souverän if the carnauba is applied thinly and allowed to dry thoroughly. Also found that it would take a real expert to tell the difference in the appearance of the three polymers - BF2 has a little more depth than Zaino until the oils are completely wiped off, and then they are the same. Klasse has very slightly less sparkle and depth than BF2 and Zaino. Zaino feels slightly silkier than the other two products.



The bottom line is: Use the products that you think fit your needs and wants. It’s not the products that make the great appearance, it’s the methodology and techniques used by you that make the difference!
 
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