about rotation

I don't think the average person even cares...



for people that knows I'm a car nut, or those seeing me clean my car, at least they'll take a second look and see the diff. But for the guys who don't, they don't really care. My officemates can notice that my car is shiny and all but it won't stop them from laying their palms on the car while chatting, putting their bags on the roof, etc...



not a lot of people appreciate well detailed cars, only other detailing nuts like us truly appreciates and turns his/her head when a well detailed car is spotted.
 
People notice but they can't care less



Neighbors are absolutlely sure I'm nuts .. and yes I'm about keeping the cars looking good, besides it is my self-therapy time.



My friends do mention how shiny the cars look , and that does feel good.



The service guy at nissan does mention the Altima looks really good every time I take it in (even before Autopia) ... he has not seen it Klasse'd yet ...



Most people here would think I have a maid to take car of my cars ...



People look at me like I'm out of this world if they find out how much I have paid to get the fancy stuff I use to detail the cars.
 
I think anyone who details their car notices how nice and clean it is, but they could care less. The only thing I care about is how I feel.



-briancl
 
Last weekend I detailed my car. I buffed out some minor scuff marks and put on a little Zaino.



Later that day I was home for lunch. When I walked out into the parking lot there were 5 of the neighborhood kids (first graders) standing beside the car laughing about how they could see their reflections on the side of the car. It looked like a funhouse mirror.



It made me a little nervous having all the kids around my car, but there's no question that they noticed the shine. I'm sure a lot of grownups notice the shine too, they're just not so free of inhibitions.
 
A few notice, but no respect. And most couldn't care less. What few have asked how I keep my cars looking good, had their eyes start glazing over when I mentioned how many steps it took. They figure on a one-step type product, once or twice a year. Not to mention those who have paid a new car dealer $400 for a "Simonize with Teflon" rip job.



In my sub, there are four or five of us that detail our cars - out of about 125 homes. Three of us have a PC. I was the first, and got the other two introduced to it. The rest of the people in this sub could give rats *** about keeping their cars looking good. They think I'm completely nuts.



I could care less what they think.
 
No clue whatsoever.



1) One friend bought a brand new black Alero because he thought they looked awesome in black. He took care of it for a few months and now it's covered in dust and begging for care. He didn't think it needed waxing because of the "stuff the dealer put on"!! Yes, he was suckered! :p



2) Another friend used to wash his car a lot, but only because he likes things clean. Turtle waxed it every so often, but only because "you're supposed to".



I'm planning on doing a basic exterior detailing session with the both of them sometime soon. Hopefully some of the info will stick! But of course neither of them ever comment on my car unless I point it out to them, and think I'm insane that I CCD my car before every outing. :(



PLEBIAN HEATHENS!!! WAKE UP AND SMELL THE CARNAUBA!!:mad:







;)
 
People notice but could care less they have too many things going on in there life and too many worries that they could care less about a car.Some people don't have enough time once work is over and doing there errends that there car comes last if it comes at all.Cars are not inportant to a lot of people they are just a piece of metal that gets them around .A lot of people lease cars today and they know in 2-3 years they are giving it back so what the hell
 
i recently purchased a 7424xp and used a couple of times. previously being a rotary user i noticed with little pressure the xp stops rotating. is it important to the ability to correct or does it not matter that the pad doesn't rotate. the only way i get positive rotation is if i turn all the way up to speed six. i want to correct with the xp and polish with the rotary.
 
glfahlc said:
i recently purchased a 7424xp and used a couple of times. previously being a rotary user i noticed with little pressure the xp stops rotating. is it important to the ability to correct or does it not matter that the pad doesn't rotate. the only way i get positive rotation is if i turn all the way up to speed six. i want to correct with the xp and polish with the rotary.
Click to expand...

I think you should do it the other way around, correct with the rotary and polish with the pc IF you are not getting the results you want with the rotary. one other thing, the pc is pretty useless if you are not using it with 5.5inch pads. Any pad bigger than that will bog down and wont spin, and if it dosent spin, you arent doing any correction. Grab a sharpee and mark a line across the backing plate, if u see the line spining it means you are doing good and getting work done, if not, you arent doing much. But like i said, 5.5 pads are key to the pc. Bigger pads with VERY little pressure will stop rotating. Its why i am looking to sell my pc and buy me a Griots Garage DA.... that thing is impossible to make it stop spining.
 
glfahlc said:
i recently purchased a 7424xp and used a couple of times. previously being a rotary user i noticed with little pressure the xp stops rotating. is it important to the ability to correct or does it not matter that the pad doesn't rotate. the only way i get positive rotation is if i turn all the way up to speed six. i want to correct with the xp and polish with the rotary.
Click to expand...

What size pads are you using? What size backing plate are you using?

The rotation of a PC is driven by the orbital speed. The faster the machine orbits, the more centrigual force is applied to the backing plate (which in makes the pad want to spin). One of the draw backs of foam pads on a DA is that they have a tendicancy to absorb the orbital action of the pad (like a sponge).

Because of this reason using low diameter 5.5 inch pads will really wake the PC up.

93fox said:
I think you should do it the other way around, correct with the rotary and polish with the pc IF you are not getting the results you want with the rotary. one other thing, the pc is pretty useless if you are not using it with 5.5inch pads. Any pad bigger than that will bog down and wont spin, and if it dosent spin, you arent doing any correction. Grab a sharpee and mark a line across the backing plate, if u see the line spining it means you are doing good and getting work done, if not, you arent doing much. But like i said, 5.5 pads are key to the pc. Bigger pads with VERY little pressure will stop rotating. Its why i am looking to sell my pc and buy me a Griots Garage DA.... that thing is impossible to make it stop spining.
Click to expand...

Just food for thought...

The power of the machine has *nothing* to do with the pad's spinning rate (RPM). The reason I *'d nothing is because it obviously has something to do with it, but the effect is very indirect.

What makes the pad spin is the size (stroke) and speed of the orbit. Think of the orbit like a bicycle pedal. The distance from the pedal to the axle would be considered 1/2 the stroke. Since the pedal orbits the axle on both sides, we add the distance together to get the stroke.

And this is why power rating of a machine is slightly misleading. Regardless if a machine has 1 horsepower or 5000 horsepower, if it is able to maintain full OPM (orbital speed) under pressure then it will spin the pad the same rate, regardless of pressure. Granted the 1 horsepower machine will likely be working much harder to achieve that speed (more % of its potential).

The power of a machine can potentially resist how much the speed decreases when friction is applied to the orbital motion. I don't care how hard you press down on a 5000 horsepower DA, you aren't going to bog it! But here is the catch, the orbital action (5/16th stroke) is fairly efficient and even under pressure it is hard to slow the orbital motion down. Most of the friction (that stops the pad from spinning) is taken up in the bearing of machine. The only real force acting to bog or slow the orbital speed is the internal flex inside the pad. A firm, thin pad is going to transfer more of that friction (from the paint) directly to the orbital motion where as a oversized squishy foam pad is going to jiggle on itself and absorb the friction. It gets a little confusing (which is why pad dynamics play such a HUGE role in DA polishing) but a big, tall foam pad will stall the spinning easier (since their is more friction at the paint's surface) but most of that friction will be absorbed by the foam, which can make it harder to stall the orbital motion.

Most modern DA's are rated at 6800 OPM maximum and most (because of pad dynamics) will maintain that orbital speed under significant pressure, regardless of how much power it has in reserve. Since the pad's rotational speed is a function of the stroke and orbital speed, if a weak machine and a strong machine both have a 5/16th's stroke and both are able to maintain a consistent orbital speed of 6800 OPM, the both will spin the pads at the same exact speed.

If pressure is applied, but neither machine looses speed, then even under pressure, both machines will perform the same.

The only advantage you are likely to see is under extreme down pressure, enough to actually cause significant drag on the orbital motion. In this case the stronger machine will maintain more orbital speed, which will will make the pad want to spin more. However at this pressure level it is very likely that the pads have stopped spinning anyways (it takes a lot to bog the orbital motion action of a machine. I know it sounds like they bog (changes in noise) but the actual change is speed is very very little.

Enough theory for one day, I'm exhausted!
 
Oops, one more thought...

"Does rotational speed matter for correction?"

This depends on how effiecent the pad is at transfering the orbital motion of the DA to the paint.

A big foam pad will act like sponge and jiggle on itself which absorbs a lot of the action. The machine may move the backing plate in a 5/16ths' orbit, but after that is motion is absorbed in the internal flexation of the pad, it is possible that only 2/16th (if any) of the motion makes it to the paint. A bowl of Jello jiggling on itself.

In this case rotational speed is very important since most of the action (the pad moving against the paint causing friction) comes from the spinning (RPM). With a very inefficient pad design you basically turn your DA into a slow speed rotary.

With an efficient pad design (think thin, smaller diameter) much more of the orbital motion and friction is transferred to the paint. In this case rotational speed is far less important since a lot of the polishing friction is coming from the orbital action.

I hope I haven't confused anybody with a trip inside my disorganized brain.
 
I have found that I need to run my Meguiars G110V2 at Speed-6 to get rotation the best, and this is fine for smaller areas where the smaller 4" pads work best, and as been already said, the smaller the pad, the better the rotation, as well as the thinner the pad, etc...

Believe the Griot/Shurhold machine rotates the best, which is why so many people are buying that/those models, and PAC believe still sells the Shurhold model..

Guess next we will be reading about you using the new Meguiars microfiber pads, compounds with your machine and having great success? :)

DanF
 
Just to add...

Rotation does not always mean that you will be correcting. If one barely places the pad on the paint (negative pressure), the pad will spin like crazy and accomplish almost no defect removal.

With microfiber pads, a user can place a lot of pressure on the machine and really start to remove some serious defects. Some of the best results I have achieved were when the pad was barely rotating. Just be sure to keep the speed around four.
 
PorscheGuy997 said:
Just to add...

Rotation does not always mean that you will be correcting. If one barely places the pad on the paint (negative pressure), the pad will spin like crazy and accomplish almost no defect removal.

With microfiber pads, a user can place a lot of pressure on the machine and really start to remove some serious defects. Some of the best results I have achieved were when the pad was barely rotating. Just be sure to keep the speed around four.
Click to expand...

as a matter of fact i have used the 5.5 microfiber pads and the 5" tangerine and crimson pads. mind you i did get great correction but was just wondering just how important rotation was as i put a mark on my backing plate and was getting very little rotation with very little pressure at less than 5.5 on the 7424xp.

todd thanks for tech speak but i have to read it again and again so i can comprehend just what you're telling us. i know its important.
 
glfahlc said:
as a matter of fact i have used the 5.5 microfiber pads and the 5" tangerine and crimson pads. mind you i did get great correction but was just wondering just how important rotation was as i put a mark on my backing plate and was getting very little rotation with very little pressure at less than 5.5 on the 7424xp.

todd thanks for tech speak but i have to read it again and again so i can comprehend just what you're telling us. i know its important.
Click to expand...

Sorry let me make it easier for myself to understand ;)

With a large, inefficient pad rotation is very important since the spinning (like a rotary) is the only action effecting the paint.

With an efficient pad (small, thin) rotation isn't as important because the orbital action plays a greater role.
 
Dr. H, you did it again.

I love the way you break things down and make it easier for all to understand. I really enjoyed reading your responses.
 
th0001 said:
Sorry let me make it easier for myself to understand ;)

With a large, inefficient pad rotation is very important since the spinning (like a rotary) is the only action effecting the paint.

With an efficient pad (small, thin) rotation isn't as important because the orbital action plays a greater role.
Click to expand...

thanks todd for making that clearer for the non-engineers among us, but i like reading your tech speak too...
 
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