The science of applying sealants thinly?

P

Perm

New member
Hi,



Seeing that most sealants benefit from very very thin application ( Klasse and Zaino to name two). Has got me wondering….



It seems that people refer to only using 1 oz of product for a whole car…. Some even talk about using quarter to an eighth of an oz to do a whole car….



Now that means people are claiming to only to be using around 10 ml for a whole car.



How do you only apply 10 ml to a whole car ???? Would not a dry foam applicator soak up 10 ml straight away ?



I am confused on how practically you can apply such little product…..



Can you help ?





Thanks





Perm
 
Maybe you can apply that amount of a paste wax, but I don't think it's possible with liquid LSP, a PC and foam pads. You are absolutely correct. The pad absorbs more than that.



Technically however, you are not applying what is absorbed into the pad. You are wasting it, but it is not going on the car! Additionally, I have watched Mike Phillips of Meguiar's detail several cars. By anybody's definition, he is a professional and knows how to apply a thin coat of wax, but I don't believe I've seen him use such small amounts of liquid wax or sealent. Meguiar's #16, yes. NXT Tech Wax or #21, no!



Maybe I should test this myself. Measure 1 oz. of #21 into a container and see how far I get...
 
STG said:
Sure, but 1 oz.? How much soaks into your pad?
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How many cars do you usually get with a 16 ounce bottle? I would say that most sealants that I use I probably use about 1 ounce per midsize to small car. The product that soaks into the pad is what makes a thin layer with the PC or Cyclo so easy. The products, at least from my experience, doesn't soak so far into the pad that it can't be used.
 
To tell you the truth, I always apply a second coat for coverage and I haven't been keeping track of how many applications I get per container. Detailing three vehicles (a 2004 Mach1, 2005 Subaru Legacy GT and 2005 F250 Powerstroke 4 X 4 with camper shell) at different times and going between NXT Tech Wax and Meg's #21 doesn't help.



I doubt if I could cover any of them with just one ounce of product
 
Applying that tiny amount is the bane of using them. If you search through the archives, you can find many threads where we discuss, argue and rant about how to do this.



Myself, I find it rather hopeless to put a dime sized dollop on an applicator and rub that dime all over the paint in a uniform manner. Especially if it's just one layer.



What I've found semi-successfull is to wet the applicator, promoting the spreading out of the sealant across the applicator. Another poster suggests using a spritzer/mister and spraying it onto the applicator across the whole face. Both techniques give you a larger wetted area to rub around the car surface. This is much more successfull in my experience than rubbing the dime sized dollop around.



The applicator itself soaks up much of the product, and then doesn't put it down on the paint. Some seem worse than others. The microfiber applicators seem the worse, yet that's what typically comes with the products. Simple foam pads seem the best.



Drying is also a problem with thin layers. Thin product anywhere dries in a matter of seconds. As in 2-3 seconds. A super thin layer on an applicator dries on the applicator, not the car, because it never got to the car. This is a problem with spray on technique.



Wet applicators trick you. You think you're seeing sealant being spread on the car and drying, but you might actually be seeing water spread on the car, evaporating. I've tricked myself with this more times than I care to admit.



I've also tried doing it like washing dishes with a sponge. Dump a good bit on the sponge, squeeze it several times to spread it around the sponge, and wipe. Wastefull, but effective.



I've not had a problem with thick coats being difficult to remove. I've intentionally glopped the product down just to watch what would happen. It dried and wiped off each time for me.



With all my best efforts, I seem to need at least 3 applications or layers to come close to a pretty good uniform application over the whole car.
 
I just saw a claim that you can get up to 8 coats out of 1oz and that includes paint, wheels, windows and trim on a average size car but most of the time when you see a claim like this they are diluting the sealant with a couple of sprays of QD on the pad. If you put enough QD on the pad you claim anything. What I have found is using QD on the pad hurts the durability of the product so I would rather use a little more product and if I have trouble removing it then use some QD for removal.
 
DennisH said:
I just saw a claim that you can get up to 8 coats out of 1oz and that includes paint, wheels, windows and trim on a average size car but most of the time when you see a claim like this they are diluting the sealant with a couple of sprays of QD on the pad. If you put enough QD on the pad you claim anything. What I have found is using QD on the pad hurts the durability of the product so I would rather use a little more product and if I have trouble removing it then use some QD for removal.
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Same here. I never have and never will use any sort of pad "primer". It's the same as diluting a product in my eyes.
 
Thanks for the replies.



I like have found the only way to get super thin layer is to use a spritzer to apply sealants and spray directly onto a foam applicator pad.



Again common sense tells me that using this method I must have missed parts of the car hence having to go over it again to ensure complete and even coverage.



What I think is needed is an applicator pad that does not absorb any product but holds it on the surface…..



Any other ideas ?
 
Perm said:
Thanks for the replies.



I like have found the only way to get super thin layer is to use a spritzer to apply sealants and spray directly onto a foam applicator pad.



Again common sense tells me that using this method I must have missed parts of the car hence having to go over it again to ensure complete and even coverage.



What I think is needed is an applicator pad that does not absorb any product but holds it on the surface…..



Any other ideas ?
Click to expand...



Apply the product sparingly and don't worry about it. I haven't seen anybody use a foam pad to apply LSP and not be able to remove product from the pad afterwards by squeezing/pressing.



I also think you are going way overboard with "super thin layer". It is my understanding that applying a thin coating promotes rapid drying and easy removal. Heavy applications of some products like Meg's #16 are very difficult to remove. Personally, I would not go to any extrodinary lengths like spraying the product on the pad. I don't like the idea of rubbing my paint with a dry finishing pad or spraying QD on it.



I do not claim to be an expert but I learned by watching Mike Phillips. As an instructor for Meguiar's who's detailed hundreds of show cars, including Pebble Beach entries, I can only assume he knows a little bit about applying thin coats of LSP. He applies liquid LSP on the finishing pad in a ring and I've seen other Meguiar's instructors make an X of product on the pad. Mike also dabs the stationary pad onto a few spots on the paint before turning the buffer on to promote even application.



Like anything, applying thin coats of LSP can get out of hand.



If your application is thin enough to dry properly and is easily removable, just what is the benefit of trying to go thinner????? (Other than frustration or being a cheapskate?)
 
I usually give my pad a spray of QD before using #16 on the PC. This is the only time I have ever used the "pad primer".



^ You sould have seen Mike apply #21 to RCBudda's girl friends Miata!
 
Perm said:
What I think is needed is an applicator pad that does not absorb any product but holds it on the surface…..
Click to expand...



Saran wrap will do that. But wouldn't work well.



You actually do need something to hold the product, but be able to release it in a controlled manner. That's what makes a sponge such a better tool to clean with compared to a rock. You can put soap on either, but the rock doesn't clean things well.



I've never experimented with them, but there are very thin hard foam sponges out there might work well. Like the bottom of a computer mouse pad. Good lint free paper towels might work very well also. Things like the blue shop towel rolls. These things will conform to the painted surface well, hold a bit of product, and release it well and in a controlled manner. Might be worth some experimentation. No one's really experimented with the applicator itself much that I'm aware of.
 
I have a slightly different way of using little product.



Find an applicator that you can split in half. Turtle Wax Ice comes with one of these. Its a purple / neon green hollow applicator. You can cut this at the seams all the way around, and you now have a very very thin soft sponge applicator. About 1/4 of a centimeter.
 
I have never had a problem with durability using thin coats and have my app. spritz'd (not soaked) with Z6. I can tell the difference on a dark color what is Z6 and what is Z2/5p when it hazes over. When I did a friends new super bee a few weeks ago, I mixed up less then 1oz (2/3-3/4) and after 3 coats still had some left over. I can still see it even on yellow and if I miss any areas on the first coat, the following applications will catch it. I have been using this product for a while and have confidence that 90-95% of the paint is getting 3 coats.
 
I'm one of the "super-thin application types". Works fine for me so I do it that way, and if somebody wants to do it differently that's fine. Nobody's ever accused me of being a cheapskate (or of even being frugal :o ) but I sure don't mind that after seven years and *MANY* KSG applications (and a few big spills :o ), I still have a lot of product left in the bottle. And I find my method to be quick and easy..well, easy enough for me. In my testing I saw evidence of adequate/uniform coverage (I saw no benefit from heavier applications on adjacent areas). Yeah, the preceding is an attempt at flame-proofing ;) as Perm asked how people do it (not whether they should), and it seems that people are getting criticized for trying to answer the Q.



The way I do it is: I hold the pad over the top of the KSG bottle and shake it, depositing a drop of KSG on the pad. I then move the pad and shake it again. I repeat this until I believe I have a sufficient amount of KSG on the pad. I do it again as needed while I'm applying. I go over each area carefully and methodically so that I'm certain I've covered it properly. No, it isn't nearly as easy as applying a thicker application, especially a thicker application of a product that's clearly visible on the surface.



And no, I can't squeeze any KSG out of the foam applicator when I'm finished. If I could I'd apply it to something ;)
 
The secret with all sealant products is a thin application. I have been using Z2p/Z5p for quite awhile. I can get about 3 coats from about 15cc's in a 30cc syringe. That's right, I use a 30 cc medical syringe that looks like this:

IJSYR30_150.jpg
.



I pour the Z2p or Z5p into the top of the syringe. I make sure the end is plugged with a small nail. I mix with ZFX if I need it. Squirt a couple shots of Z8. I then mix it all up and reinsert the plunger. The syringe method is much better for applying those thin layers of product onto a terry cloth applicator pad. Right from the syringe I squirt a very thin line the shape of a "M". With practice you can get about 5cc's per coat.



You waste very little product that way vs. the Zaino plastic bottle method. You might waste 1 little drop with the syringe.
 
I get 50-60 applications per 16 oz bottle of Werkstatt's Acrylic Jett, so I know I am not using a lot of product per car.
 
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